Madaket wind setter out of date - why?

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Madaket wind setter out of date - why?

Postby YN » Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:32 am

.COM editorial-writer Jane Fossett recently unearthed another article from a large pile that she had accidentally deleted a few months back, this time about PHRF hotlaps.

Many of you know that the hotlaps start line is currently situated in Madaket. As you can see in this picture, the Madaket start line is still using one of the old-style windsetters. But why?

This wind setter has limited capabilities - it can only provide basic wind information to Tako-style boats. It does not provide wave or current information, and neither can it provide local variances of such parameters. The number of boats that use the more sophisticated wwc setter is growing. Some boats have dropped support for Tako-only wind already - the wwc setter was introduced last summer after all.

Over the last few weeks, several sailors have contacted me and others associated with Nantucket Yacht Club and asked for the windsetter to be replaced with a current model so that they could begin to run hotlaps with newer-generation boats. These requests were passed along to Jane, who promised to hold a meeting to discuss the issue. To my knowledge, such a meeting never occurred. Perhaps Jane would like to explain us all why she wouldn't place a wwc setter at the Madaket Start Line?
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Postby Liv Leigh » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:16 pm

This is an interesting part of the subject of the PHRF development, along with some other questions we have about the boats of newer and older generations and our possibilities to compare them.

It would be nice to have some sort of meeting/presentation at some time in the near future where we can learn from the project and ask our questions. :)
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Re: Madaket wind setter out of date - why?

Postby Jane Fossett » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:01 am

YN wrote:.COM editorial-writer Jane Fossett recently unearthed another article from a large pile that she had accidentally deleted a few months back, this time about PHRF hotlaps.
Many of you know that the hotlaps start line is currently situated in Madaket. As you can see in this picture, the Madaket start line is still using one of the old-style windsetters. But why?
This wind setter has limited capabilities - it can only provide basic wind information to Tako-style boats. It does not provide wave or current information, and neither can it provide local variances of such parameters. The number of boats that use the more sophisticated wwc setter is growing. Some boats have dropped support for Tako-only wind already - the wwc setter was introduced last summer after all.
Over the last few weeks, several sailors have contacted me and others associated with Nantucket Yacht Club and asked for the windsetter to be replaced with a current model so that they could begin to run hotlaps with newer-generation boats. These requests were passed along to Jane, who promised to hold a meeting to discuss the issue. To my knowledge, such a meeting never occurred. Perhaps Jane would like to explain us all why she wouldn't place a wwc setter at the Madaket Start Line?


Hi!
Some of the things you bring up above involve "official" NYC decisions, so let me start by saying that I don't speak for NYC. There's a full steering group and Francois Jacques is commodore by unanimous agreement. Francois has the final word, and speaks for the club. Sailing dogma from the First Vatican Regatta of 1870 establishes that Commodore Jacques' pronouncements are infallible as long as she is wearing an official NYC teeshirt and an SLCG-approved personal floatation device. With that understanding...

Yuu? if you wanted more details about the wind setter, why didn't you just ask me?
This is the first time I've heard you had concerns.
I'd apologize for not keeping you in the loop on this, but you must know I've been trying to contact you for several weeks.
I've left you multiple messages trying to bring you current, get your advice, and reply to any questions you might have.
When I couldn't get in touch with you, I mentioned it to François so she'd know to update you directly and get your opinions.
(FJ of course would do that anyway.)

Here's what you would know if we had talked; it's the same thing I've told everybody else who asked.
(To keep this as brief as I can, I won't go through all the details over the line, web interface, and phrf issues here, but I'm delighted to do that elsewhere).

I initially tried to use Mothgirl's WWC 1.04 in Madaket. I ended up with a series of potential (and real) problems.
Those issues were unique to madaket and phrf, not problems with the WWC per se.
The issues were discussed at length, in many settings, with many people, and at numerous NYC steering meetings.
The "Madaket wind issue" was one of the most talked-through issues I can recall in SLSailing, actually; at times it got humorous. I sent the same memo outlining all the issues and different sides on three different occasions, just changing the date while we went around in circles... and one evening Francois and I EACH collared Armchair an hour apart to get his input (AC thought that was pretty funny).
Of course I asked Moth about the problems, and my understanding was there was no clear fix for our issues (which again were not the fault of the WWC).

As Moth knows, I planned to start with the old WS in Madaket, and then do in-the-water tests to prove the WWC1.04 gave identical results.

Exactly one day before your post here, Mothgirl IM'd me about other stuff and I asked her if she had a moment to help me out:

[2009/04/10 6:37] Jane Fossett: You know I have this problem with windsetter in Madaket...

As always, Moth was very helpful, and gave me new suggestions that I tried out immediately.
While Surfwidow was lecturing us on scupties, I had a new WWC set up on my railing in Madaket with a test box announcing the wind every few seconds:

[2009/04/10 7:07] WWC Setter 1.04: The WWC Setter will listen for commands from Jane Fossett for 60 seconds.
Click and hold to get a dialog box
[2009/04/10 7:07] Wind setter Tester: Received the text:0 11.0 10 1.10 1.00
[2009/04/10 7:07] Wind setter Tester: ListenHandle ist 14588
[2009/04/10 7:07] Wind setter Tester: Received the text:0 11.0 10 1.10 1.00
[2009/04/10 7:08] Wind setter Tester: Received the text:0 11.0 10 1.10 1.00
...

Francois was standing there too; I told her I thought I had a WWS fix with Moth's help.
Like any great commodore should, FJ told me I could NOT put a new WWS until I proved to her satisfaction ALL NYC's prior concerns were met.
(Now you see why she is Commodore, grin.)

Yuu? Could you please help me do that?
I could really use your input on this, and I've been trying to ask you for weeks...
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Re: Madaket wind setter out of date - why?

Postby YN » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:30 pm

Jane Fossett wrote:This is the first time I've heard you had concerns. I'd apologize for not keeping you in the loop on this, but you must know I've been trying to contact you for several weeks. I've left you multiple messages trying to bring you current, get your advice, and reply to any questions you might have. When I couldn't get in touch with you, I mentioned it to François so she'd know to update you directly and get your opinions. (FJ of course would do that anyway.)



Just in case anyone wondered -- that's not what you did, Jane. Here's what you did: you told someone who was asking you about the wind setter that there would be "a meeting". I have direct knowledge of that. Weeks went by and that meeting was never held. And that is why I am raising the question again: several people approached me about the fact that there was an outdated wind setter at the phrf line that prevents them from using it. It's in the passage you quote.


Jane Fossett wrote:I initially tried to use Mothgirl's WWC 1.04 in Madaket. I ended up with a series of potential (and real) problems. Those issues were unique to madaket and phrf, not problems with the WWC per se. The issues were discussed at length, in many settings, with many people, and at numerous NYC steering meetings.

Of course I asked Moth about the problems, and my understanding was there was no clear fix for our issues (which again were not the fault of the WWC).


That sounds intriguing. Would you like to tell us more about this "series of potential (and real) problems" that were nobody's fault?

Jane Fossett wrote:As Moth knows, I planned to start with the old WS in Madaket, and then do in-the-water tests to prove the WWC1.04 gave identical results.

As always, Moth was very helpful, and gave me new suggestions that I tried out immediately. While Surfwidow was lecturing us on scupties, I had a new WWC set up on my railing in Madaket with a test box announcing the wind every few seconds:

[2009/04/10 7:07] WWC Setter 1.04: The WWC Setter will listen for commands from Jane Fossett for 60 seconds.
Click and hold to get a dialog box
[2009/04/10 7:07] Wind setter Tester: Received the text:0 11.0 10 1.10 1.00
[2009/04/10 7:07] Wind setter Tester: ListenHandle ist 14588
[2009/04/10 7:07] Wind setter Tester: Received the text:0 11.0 10 1.10 1.00
[2009/04/10 7:08] Wind setter Tester: Received the text:0 11.0 10 1.10 1.00
...

Francois was standing there too; I told her I thought I had a WWS fix with Moth's help. Like any great commodore should, FJ told me I could NOT put a new WWS until I proved to her satisfaction ALL NYC's prior concerns were met. (Now you see why she is Commodore, grin.)


Allow me to respond to this classic piece of Fossettiana with a picture and a little bit of history:


    Galileo began his telescopic observations in the later part of 1609, and by March of 1610 was able to publish a small book, The Starry Messenger (Sidereus Nuncius), relating some discoveries that had not been dreamed of in the philosophy of the time: mountains on the Moon, lesser moons in orbit around Jupiter, and the resolution of what had been thought cloudy masses in the sky (nebulae) into collections of stars too faint to see individually. Other observations followed, including the phases of Venus and the existence of sunspots.

    Jesuit astronomers, experts both in Church teachings and in natural philosophy, were at first skeptical and hostile to the new ideas, however, within a year or two the availability of good telescopes enabled them to repeat the observations. In 1611 Galileo visited the Collegium Romanum in Rome, where the Jesuit astronomers by that time had repeated his observations. Christoph Grienberger, one of the Jesuit scholars on the faculty, sympathized with Galileo’s theories, but was asked to defend the Aristotelian viewpoint by Claudio Acquaviva, the Father General of the Jesuits. Not all of Galileo's claims were completely accepted: Christopher Clavius, the most distinguished astronomer of his age, never was reconciled to the idea of mountains on the Moon, and outside the Collegium many still disputed the reality of the observations. In a letter to Kepler of August 1610, Galileo complained that some of the philosophers who opposed his discoveries had refused even to look through a telescope.

    "My dear Kepler, what would you say of the learned here, who, replete with the pertinacity of the asp, have steadfastly refused to cast a glance through the telescope? What shall we make of this? Shall we laugh, or shall we cry?" --Letter from Galileo Galilei to Johannes Kepler
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Sailng on

Postby Chaos Mandelbrot » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:26 pm

Wakes up looks around and thinks this thread

"... is a tale ... full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

Returns to boat selection for upcoming cruises.
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Postby Alain Gloster » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:02 pm

Out of minor curiosity.....
the reason why the Madaket windsetter well, IS, is no variation in wind..allowing for constancy.
Is there a standard setting for wave and current action or are we just dicking around here?
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Fat Chance?

Postby YN » Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:48 am

As of today, Fizz sailors are still being prevented from using the PHRF line at Madaket, despite Jane's protestations to the contrary, both here and on her editorial page. Quote:

Jane Fossett wrote:The results are intriguing so far, but the Handicaps project will get much more interesting as more boats are added to the list, and as more skippers contribute lap data. It’s notable that two of the most popular sailboats, the Tako and Fizz were not included in the original handicap trials. That happened because the handicap was originally designed to rate boats for PHRF-style mixed fleet racing, and the Tako and Fizz seemed to hang out with a different, more One-Design crowd. That obviously was a mistake, and it would be very valuable to have lap information on those boats as part of the growing database.


Fat chance!

As of today, the outdated wind setter is still in place.
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Postby Jane Fossett » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:40 am

YN wrote:As of today, Fizz sailors are still being prevented from using the PHRF line at Madaket, despite Jane's protestations to the contrary, both here and on her editorial page. Quote:

Jane Fossett wrote:The results are intriguing so far, but the Handicaps project will get much more interesting as more boats are added to the list, and as more skippers contribute lap data. It’s notable that two of the most popular sailboats, the Tako and Fizz were not included in the original handicap trials. That happened because the handicap was originally designed to rate boats for PHRF-style mixed fleet racing, and the Tako and Fizz seemed to hang out with a different, more One-Design crowd. That obviously was a mistake, and it would be very valuable to have lap information on those boats as part of the growing database.


Fat chance!

As of today, the outdated wind setter is still in place.


Yuu, I wrote that article 14 months ago (February 3, 2008). The original Fizz had just launched; in fact the first Fizz race at SYC occurred the day I wrote that piece.
You are correct, I said I thought it was important to get PHRF data on the Fizz. As you also know, beginning shortly after that article a number of skippers spent several months collecting data, sailing multiple PHRF courses in Fizz, Tako, and over two dozen other boats.
All that material (the good laps anyway) can be found organized in spreadsheets and posted on the Hotlaps thread of the ORG racing section. There are multiple published summaries and discussions of the results here and on COM.

So yes, I said it was important, a large bunch of great skippers thought so too, and we had lots of laughs and some great sailing as we worked on the project. I have no problem admitting that the whole group of us did a pretty great job.

I also agree we need to do more. In my previous post I told you some of what was going on recently with the wind.
I asked if you would please help me.

It will get done over the next few days in any event.

But let me say, just so no one gets confused, that the system is working fine now with the old wind setter, and we're making adjustments so the results display will be easier and more interactive for sailors. (When I say "we" I really mean Cynthia, Chaos, and Oli; I just add up the numbers and have the incredible joy of worrying about the statistics.)

Also--
Since there are a series of ongoing items to talk about, including what the data shows, how new options work, and what new features sailors would like to see included in the displays, I think we should continue this discussion here on ORG.
I'll therefore start a new thread to discuss Madaket PHRF 2009 Hotlaps.
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Postby YN » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:04 am

Jane Fossett wrote:Yuu, I wrote that article 14 months ago (February 3, 2008). The original Fizz had just launched; in fact the first Fizz race at SYC occurred the day I wrote that piece. You are correct, I said I thought it was important to get PHRF data on the Fizz. As you also know, beginning shortly after that article a number of skippers spent several months collecting data, sailing multiple PHRF courses in Fizz, Tako, and over two dozen other boats.


Well, it seems something has changed, because now it is not important any more to collect data from new-generation boats?


Jane Fossett wrote:I also agree we need to do more. In my previous post I told you some of what was going on recently with the wind. I asked if you would please help me.


The problem, again, is that you haven't said a word as to what the perceived problem with the new windsetter is. All you say is that you have, or had, a problem - and that you coincidentally solved it "just last week". I have asked you to provide details; you aren't providing them.

Jane Fossett wrote:It will get done over the next few days in any event.


Jane Fossett wrote:But let me say, just so no one gets confused, that the system is working fine now with the old wind setter, and we're making adjustments so the results display will be easier and more interactive for sailors.


Well, here is something you would know if you would ever sit in a Fizz: the new version doesn't use the SLSF wind setter any more - at all. That's why Fizz sailors can't use the line.

That is why people approach me, asking me why they can't sail from the Madaket start line like they can from every other start line - SYC, NYC, FIYC, WYC, TYC and Mowry Bay all use the wwc wind setter.
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Postby YN » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:11 pm

While Jane is happy to answer any and all questions about the data tables and charts of the PHRF line, she remains silent on the reason why Fizz sailors are being prevented from using the line.

The wwc wind setter has not been put in place and no explanation is given.
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Postby Cynthia Centaur » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:20 am

Maybe i can answer that question for Jane.

When Jane, Francois and i tried to set things up we ran into a set of problems. Many of them had to do with access rights and with usability. It was simply not possible to set up a new WWC windsetter in a mode that satisfied all our needs. So we gave up, annoyed.

Nobody complained about that up to now (Hi Mothgirl, no stress and drama please). But fact is, that the WWC -- with all it's advantages -- also has some weaknesses.

So, like in so many cases, "new" is not necessarily "better". But granted, this surely depends on the requirements you have and the priorities you put on them in case not all can be fulfilled satisfactionary. So whether something "new" is also "better" is definitely an opinion, not a fact.

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Postby YN » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:43 am

Hi Cynthia, thanks for the response. So, access rights were the issue as faras you are concerned? That doesn't sound too complicated to solve?

In any case, the Fizz 3 no longer listens to the old windsetter, which makes the upgrade urgent. Or otherwise, explain to the Fizz sailors that ask me about the PHRF line why you won't let them use it -- after watching the anti-response from Jane in this setting, I am not going to be able to pass on inquiries in good faith.
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Postby Mothgirl Dibou » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:52 am

Personally I see no problem in the Madaket windsetter being a windsetter. It is used for hotlaps and those that like to sail them do not use a Fizz 3. No use comparing the speed of a Fizz 3 with anything else anyway. But yes, a Fizz 3.02 does not listen to old windsetters anymore.

I think it is even convenient to have a windsetter installed there and not a WWC setter. This way no Fizz based boat will be bothered with it when they sail along the NYC clubhouse into Madaket.

It would be even cooler to have local windshifts in that area. The main WWC setter could deal with this. In fact, it could easily deal with the entire Blake Sea. The extra setter in Madaket will only be disturbing in this respect.

This doesnt mean the hotlaps setter shouldnt be there at all. What the WWC Setter lacks I think is an option to only switch it on upon request for a limited time, enough to do your hotlap. For I believe this is your problem with it, but I don't knw for sure, there maybe something else. I'd be happy to build this funtion in and make a new version of the setter. Or maybe someone else with scripting experience can edit the WWC Setter and make a special version. There are full perm scripts available.

Because indeed new things are not always better at first, but if people report what they think should be improved and not just say the new stuff is no good or the old things were better, the new things can grow. Without feedback nothing will change. Simply grasping back at what used to be is never a solution. It is when people team up and join hands that new developments are given the chance to show their full potential.
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paradigm shift

Postby Jane Fossett » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:07 am

YN wrote:after watching the anti-response from Jane in this setting, I am not going to be able to pass on inquiries in good faith.

omg...
<--agrees 100%
What an absolutely brilliant idea
From now on, all questions pleeeeze should go to Cynthia.
Why did I never think of that before... (grin)
Cynthia is the brains of NYC,
Francois has the looks,
and me?
God blessed me with a really great pair of sneakers here...
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Re: Madaket wind setter out of date - why?

Postby Stuart Choche » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:55 pm

YN wrote:
    Galileo began his telescopic observations in the later part of 1609, and by March of 1610 was able to publish a small book, The Starry Messenger (Sidereus Nuncius), relating some discoveries that had not been dreamed of in the philosophy of the time: mountains on the Moon, lesser moons in orbit around Jupiter, and the resolution of what had been thought cloudy masses in the sky (nebulae) into collections of stars too faint to see individually. Other observations followed, including the phases of Venus and the existence of sunspots.


hm. asking Galileo to be an eyewitness of propper science, truth and WYSIWYG is very very dangerous, Yuu :-) He was the first one and prototype of a politican in the robe of a scientist. In fact - Jane's experiments are more likely Galileo style than anything else ;-)
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