Barging = 720

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Barging = 720

Postby Caitlyn » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:29 pm

I'm not sure this is the place to post this, but I'm sure the moderators will move it where it needs to go.

I think probably everyone wants our Second Life sailing experience to be as close to 'the real thing' as it possibly can ... but I think there are some things you see, that you might never see offline, due to the desire not to put holes in your boat, have crew members crushed between two hulls, etc ... thing that obviously don't happen with pixel boats.

Barging, and committing fouls while doing it ... seems to pay off nicely. You come flying in at about 50 degrees, far faster than the other boats ... push your way into having room you are not actually entitled to, cross at full speed, while killing the speed of all the boats you barged ... and here is the kicker. You can do your 360 at full speed, and that penalty is not as harsh at the people your fouled.

Barging pays ... and pays bigtime. If you play your cards right, you can even use your 'penalty' to get windward.

Short and sweet ... I think it's worth discussing the possibility that the penalty for fouling while barging, should be increased to a 720.

Just for discussion ... :D
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Liv Leigh » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:21 am

I think much of the problem with barging boats from windward is with the fleet and the race officials. If more sailors would be alert to boats barging their way towards the line from windward, it would be more dangerous to do so. I've had much fun watching Miwha's starts at the Fizz Cup races, always waiting for the barge and then perfectly timing the move to trap them at the pin end of the line. If there are a few people in a fleet who like to use rule 11 in prestart, the whole picture can change.

Then the race officials should be more alert to those things. For educational purposes, I would also recommend to mention a thing or two after a race if a certain foul was not protested in prestart. This may not be good for 'important' races, but in a casual weekly race this could help.

About 720's: I don't know what boat you are talking about when you mention a 360 penalty, but I suppose if this can be done so quickly in that particular boat, a 720 penalty would be in place anyways.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Rimmer Telling » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:48 am

This advice is in our club handbook in RL - it might be of use

When you’re approaching the mark, usually the committee boat, at the starboard end of the starting line to start and another boat is overlapped with you on your windward side, hail:

“<Boat> There will be no room for you between me and that mark.”

Make your hail firmly, authoritatively, and well before you reach the mark, so there is still time for the windward boat to luff up and pass the mark to port or slow and bear away. If you wait until the windward boat is unable to avoid passing the mark to starboard, you will have to avoid a collision and she will have succeeded in barging her way between you and the mark. A Rule 11 protest could be made but this can be difficult for the committee to verify if the boats are in the general start line melee'. Your hail could tip the balance in your favour.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Caitlyn » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:24 am

This is not based on any particular race, or boat. It's more of a general comment.

Absolutely, you can luff a barging boat, or whatever ... but if they make the decision to push through anyway, you are basically done. My point here is strictly punative - an attempt to make the person that commits the foul, actually pay a greater price than the boat that was fouled.

Being fouled by someone that is barging reminds me of a basketball game where someone fouls another players, that playerd gets two free throws, then get ejected from the game. :wink:
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby noodleqt exonar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:16 am

Interesting discussion.

Rule 44 specifically mentions one turn penalty for touching a mark - and two turns penalty penalty for all other fouls. It then goes on, that the penalty may be retirement, if the foul has resulted in significant advantage. I cannot see a reason for reducing 720 to 360, except it rewards the bullies.

However, barging is not prohibited. The other boats will need to take countermeasures. Luff so the barger cannot come to the pin, protest if the barger pushes his way through. The problem is typically seen in - shall we say - less trained fleets. In a sharp fleet, the barger will almost always be DQed by a protest - or the barger will simply loose the start, because there will be no room.

The case described by Caitlyn is a good example of bad behaviour. 720 would be my response, and if the penalty is not taken, - DQ. If one single barger destroys the start for the rest of the fleet, rule 44 kicks in with retirement. It is all a matter of the judges and the sailors being aware of these issues.

In soccer there is a system of three yellow cards, and you are out. This is not formalized in sailing, but rule 69 makes it real. Gross misconduct can lead to warning, penalty, disqualification and exclusion from future races. This would apply to a boat that repeatedly speculates in fouling to gain advantage.

In RL the desire not to put holes in your boat is in play. Lets suppose we built this into our rules. Lets suppose a collision result in two things: 1) A 720 penalty and 2) Some kind of disablement of the boat.

The easy - non technical - way out is to say: Any boat in a collision gets a 5% time penalty. The penalty is not related to lap time, but to finish time alone. (Better yet: revert to old school rules: If two boats collide and no-one protests, they are both DQed by the judge. No option for appeal)

The more technical implementation would be to make the boat go down in speed by five percent per collision. I am sure the boatbuilders of SL can do this. Make it last for one race, then clear.

Summing it up...

According to the rules: Barging - if protested - should cause at least a 720 penalty. If the barger gains significant advantage, the barger should be retired, and the judge can do this.

If we can add a penalty for colliding, then that would be great.

:-)
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Slanty Uriza » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:50 am

noodleqt exonar wrote:In soccer there is a system of three yellow cards, and you are out.


Footbal! And it's 2 yellow cards and you're out, know your rules Noodle!
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby noodleqt exonar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:24 am

Thx, Slanty. I am not into football. Two yellows and ur out is even better. Wikipedia explains the reasons for getting a yellow card:

1. Unsporting behaviour
2. Dissent by word or action
3. Persistently infringing the laws of the game
4. Delaying the restart of play
5. Failing to respect the required distance of a corner kick or free kick
6. Entering or re-entering the field of play without the referee’s permission
7. Deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission
8. Taking off their jersey after a goal

I guess 1, 2 and 3 cover both fair game and gross misconduct.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Liv Leigh » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:38 am

I guess 8. only applies to PG sims?
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Bea Woodget » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:59 am

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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Orca Flotta » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:35 am

Rimmer Telling wrote:This advice is in our club handbook in RL - it might be of use

When you’re approaching the mark, usually the committee boat, at the starboard end of the starting line to start and another boat is overlapped with you on your windward side, hail:

“<Boat> There will be no room for you between me and that mark.”

Make your hail firmly, authoritatively, and well before you reach the mark, so there is still time for the windward boat to luff up and pass the mark to port or slow and bear away. If you wait until the windward boat is unable to avoid passing the mark to starboard, you will have to avoid a collision and she will have succeeded in barging her way between you and the mark. A Rule 11 protest could be made but this can be difficult for the committee to verify if the boats are in the general start line melee'. Your hail could tip the balance in your favour.


Oh wow, Rimmer, are you serious?
If anyone tries to barge into me I just don't have the time for much talking. Using one hand to steer/trim the boat and the other to facepalm. Not a good one-handed typist ... and anyway, since when do I allow others to turn their problems into my problems? I treat barging boats as non-existent. They are not supposed to be there in the first place so I treat them as if they aren't there. Like phantom rocks which I happen to just sail straight trough, while others are trying to avoid them. Heck, technically there is nothing to avoid.
I'd even go so far as to say forget about the ISAF for a moment and treat collisions according to the TOS instead. Purposely damaging other people's scripts is nothing else but griefing. AR the idiot!
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Rimmer Telling » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:46 am

Er Orca - I don't want to appear like the innocent guy who thought Muffin the Mule was a sexual offence, but what is "face palming" and is it legal??? and how does it make my boat go faster??
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby noodleqt exonar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:01 am

Orcs, you are right. Bargers have no business being where they are.

I can understand your approach, because it is simple and not very unruly, but it makes the problem persist. By ignoring the bargers, your start is ruined by the impact, and the bargers continue to sail thinking it was ok.

What you should do is protest BEFORE the collision, so your start is not ruined by the impact AND the bargers are DQed; Then they will eventually learn.

But it is hard to trim, steer, watch the timer and type a protest; I will give u that. We also shout "no room" in RL, just as Rimmer proposes. However, it works better when there is real damage to be made. When bargers are not penalized they have a winning position. Thats why Caitlyn wants 720, and thats why I figured we need to emulate real damage, by making a collision really expensive.

:-)
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Bea Woodget » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:16 am

read http://slsailing.com/2010/04/luffing-an ... the-start/

A barger?

1. Hail/Shout first. You may luff, but don't abuse with it...or be careful...
2. Be aware there is no "proper course" before the gun (countdown to zero), Rule 17 applies differently after the gun...
3. Avoid contact BY ALL MEANS (rule 14)
4. Then protest.

oh btw, rule 17 is not part of RRSSL (and neither 14 is) ...
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Bea Woodget » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:18 am

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Re: Barging = 720

Postby LDeWell Hawker » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:45 pm

First, a barge is not illegal. It is simply a very risky maneuver as you are coming in with speed, and have no rights and are not entitled to room. A barging boat gains significant advantage by this speed as well is well positioned to wind shadow other boats, whom are close hauled and moving slower. It appears as being an unfair strategy! If the boats that are sailing have 'wind shadowing' the lee boats are trapped and disadvantaged as they cannot tack to port either. There is a legitimate starting technique where a boat on a beam reach takes a run at the line, intending to be slightly late, using that speed to head up a bit higher and then tack to port.

A barge can create another serious effect: it is called the 'cascade effect' where a lee boat moves further leeward to avoid the barging boat, and this keeps happening so the ultimate result is some one gets pinched. And a protest by the 'pinched boat' is fruitless because the boats moving leeward to avoid a collision would be exonerated in protest situation. The barging boat escapes if no directly lee boat protested. This sort of circumstance happens when the barging boat is EARLY and runs the line instead of ducking behind the starting fleet.

The real question here is how do you stop barging! The answer is simple: PROTEST! It really is ok to PROTEST! If you don't want to protest then use your leeward right and either force them over the line, or above the starting mark. If you do collide, you will be exonerated and the other boat penalized.

Any RD worth their salt can see the barge developing against the boats close hauled fetching lee of the starboard pin. And in a protest situation the barging boat cannot justify its position and will be penalized OR disqualified if it has seriously hampered the starting fleet. In sailing, the judges are not referees, nor are the RD to make calls against the competitors. They judge the facts and decide the worth of the protest . A serious impingement of the fleet can result in a judge invoking a penalty (only in Match racing can the umpires force a penalty on a boat without a protest, where an incident that in their opinion has fouled the other boat and gained significant advantage as result). In a fleet race if such impediment results in a judge deciding no penalty is acceptable in the incident that boat is retired the boat from the race.

It becomes a 'catch 22' situation if you don't do something, sailors see barging boats get away with it, hmm well maybe I should do that too and pretty soon you have 5 or 6 boats on a beam reach for the line ready to spear any close hauled boat! Now, there are techniques in starting that can throw a serious brake on a barging boats and set them up for a foul or force them behind the proper starting boats. There is a reason you often find a committee boat as the starboard pin, it helps prevent barging as if it is the pin, and you hit the committee boat, well then you must do a penalty and the penalty is a single turn with a gybe and tack in the same direction and it must be done as soon as possible that you are clear of other boats.

Finally, the question as to is a single turn penalty enough? Most rules call for a two turn penalty. The short answer is NO especially as the level of the competition increases. In those circumstances the reward should not outweigh the risk. For less skilled sailors, say in novice races, or club races perhaps a single turn done promptly may suffice. As I understand, the rational for a single turn was additional time lost from lag. I don't necessarily agree with that, and a skilled sailor can do a single turn pretty quick!
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