Comments re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Discuss racing matters here. Note that race results and past rules cases have their own sections.

Re: Comments re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Rou

Postby noodleqt exonar » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:05 am

Kentrock, don't be so sour. None of all the good work was lost, if we learned something. If you (and many others it seems) prefer to be crashtest dummies and win a race because ur the fastest to reboot, relogin and rerezz over and over again then fair enough.

I'd like to see the sailing community move towards the RD setting the scene and the rules in the NOR. That way we can have crashtest-dummy races and sailing races to choose from. Everybody is happy, no?
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Re: Comments re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Rou

Postby Liv Leigh » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:30 am

Kentrock Messmer wrote:Or did we just put a very bad taste in the mouth of the majority of the sailing community that was having a lot of fun and working their buts off to sail fast in the conditions they were faced with on race day. Not to mention the host clubs that spent months on planning and spent a lot of time and money to make sure everyone would have a good time.

A few notes:
- I am one of those sailors that 'worked their butts off to race fast'.
- I am also representing an organising club here that invests a lot of time and effort. We intend to spend more time, effort and money on this as well.

I do agree with you though that we have an issue when it comes to learning processes in the sailing community. This may partly be due to the knowledge that has left, partly due to people preferring personal attacks above debating the actual contents and meaning of a case, like the round 4 appeal session.
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Re: Comments re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Rou

Postby Kentrock Messmer » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:19 am

I am not sour nor am I a crash test dummy. Your protest was invalid, it’s as simple as that.

JUDGES’ MANUAL
Edition 5
December 2008

9.28 Requests for Redress
A boat may not protest the race committee or the protest committee. It can, however, seek a hearing for redress. The race committee may request redress for a boat and a protest committee may call a hearing to consider granting redress to a boat. Redress cannot be granted without a hearing.

Can you find one case of a boat successfully protesting the RC, or an appeal that resulted in race abandonment?
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Re: Comments re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Rou

Postby Bea Woodget » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:43 am

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Last edited by Bea Woodget on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And what if I tell you that some of my posts, doesn't reflect a critical side, but a perfectionist side, that I can not stand mediocrity when one could do great things even easier. Do I deserve a spanking? Do not say "yes!" or assume...
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Re: Comments re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Rou

Postby Kentrock Messmer » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:57 am

61.2(c) any rule the protestor believes was broken.
Please explain how the RC broke rule 32?
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Re: Comments re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Rou

Postby Bea Woodget » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:04 am

deleted
Last edited by Bea Woodget on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And what if I tell you that some of my posts, doesn't reflect a critical side, but a perfectionist side, that I can not stand mediocrity when one could do great things even easier. Do I deserve a spanking? Do not say "yes!" or assume...
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Da Rulz

Postby Jane Fossett » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:47 am

As I posted earlier, I'm starting to think the ISAF modified Rules for RC boats may be a better fit for a virtual sailing environments.
Last night I found my all-time favorite line in their manual on how to run a regatta, the "Sailing Instructions Guide."
They begin by stating a list of "principles on which all sailing instructions should be based."
Number 3 is my all-time favorite:

3. [The Race Committee] should not change the racing rules except when clearly desirable.
It's still early morning here and its only Tuesday; I'm not sure what I desire yet.

Actually in some circumstances, Principle 5 is almost as good:
3. [The Race Committee] should not repeat themselves.
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Re: Comments re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Rou

Postby Jane Fossett » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am

I think this discussion is reasonable, within limits.
The Round Four 6am race was appealed and we have a ruling.
How another similar case should be handled in the future is a good discussion.
I agree with Kentrock, I think it could be handled differently.
However, name-calling and drama over past races and rulings is just not good sportsmanship.

This is the effect of the 'everybody gets 2.5' scoring adjustment:

The third and fourth place boats benefit; they get 0.5 and 1.5 off their totals.
SVC goes from 2.0 to 2.5, but that's their discard, so SVC is not affected.
Oceans 11 goes from 1.0 to 2.5, and that drop means
they need to use a discard that they would have applied elsewhere.
Oceans 11 drops from a tie for third place to a tie for fifth place.

One might think they got 'hammered' in this deal.
I'm still wondering how fair that is.

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Re: Comments re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Rou

Postby Suzi Siemens » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:42 am

Whatever we may-- or may not-- have gained from this "Appeals Process"

IMHO....

It Was Not Worth It.


The "Appeals Process" should be REMOVED from the rules at the earliest possible moment.

Before it "teaches" us anything else LOL
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Re: Comments re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Rou

Postby noodleqt exonar » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:49 am

In the official OW thread Kentrock writes about the issue being better served in a blog or in a separate thread or something. The issue being "definition of bad weather in SL". I fully agree. The fuzz created by one silly protest and appeal in a toy universe has grown to dimensions beyond my wildest imagination. We're way past fun and way down a road I didn't even know existed.

I will give Kentrock another thing. The process has been a little bit strange. I like Janes idea of taking it all in public, but I don't think it works in praxis. It generates far too much noise having the entire community at the table. I'd prefer a closed hearing and ruling. All files published afterwards.

In the aca 2011 thread Slanty suggests playing by common sense only. No rules. I am pretty sure common sense comes in many different flavours. The ruleset presented by Quirky in the same thread looks nice and simple, and it seems to fill many of the holes found in the RRSSL. Maybe those rules are good enough for SL sailing.

Unclear definitions don't work. All this debate is caused by the lack of a clear definition of "what is a boat race" or "what is bad weather". Since the sailing community is unable to organise, meet and agree on a set of common rules, we're in trouble. We thought that race sucked, and we did what was needed to make that a statement.

Thats it for me; I won't be commenting further on the protest issue. If you really wanna talk about it, then catch me inworld. From now on I am happy smurf sailing for fun. (Add just a pinch of search for realism still).

Cheers and no hard feelings for my part,
Noodle
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