Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Liv Leigh » Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:17 am

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The place for discussions about SL and RL sailing, grid-happenings, and other topics of general interest.


As I see it, noodle is debating the ruleset we commonly use in SL. There are all kinds of reasons why some rules are being used, omitted etc. Possible changes in the basic ruleset that RRSSL can be argued about. There have been numerous patches made recently, by Taku Raymaker, by others, including rule 17, subsets of rule 18 and so on, because they consider the basic set inadequate for their events.

I don't see how a comparison to the full ISAF ruleset doesn't contribute to the debate of sailing rules in SL.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Nomad Zamani » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:18 pm

noodleqt exonar wrote:Having a common understanding of rules and how use them is - to me - a fundamental part of facilitating a racing community. From what I have seen till now, this - the common understanding of racing rules and how to apply them - is not nearly in place in SL.

The only common understanding you are likely to find is that between participants in a particular event (and there may not be much common understanding in some events).


Entering the scene of sailing in SL is not excactly easy. There seems to be no widely reckognized authority of rules, the yacht racing rules mentioned on slsailing are a subset of the real life rules.

There is no authority other than the RD or race committee pertaining to a particular event. There is also no fixed set of rules. The subset posted at the start of this thread is, in effect, a proposal, or a summation of the subset that had already been in use. It is not the way things are on the water, any more than full ISAF or common-sense-only are.


Furthermore, this subset seem to be applied more or less in random by different race directors.

Correct.


The yacht clubs seem to be pursuing their own happiness - effectively not caring what they do in other clubs. It really looks like chaos and anarchy.

Each yacht club is an entity within itself - a sub-community within the wider community. Each has its own character, its own way of doing things, and these are what attract people to different clubs. While many people are members of multiple clubs, I think most see one club in particular as their home club.


I find it would benefit us all, if someone old and wise tried to sum it all up. Where are we, where are we going, and what are the rules; Perhaps thats not possible, and the reality is... there is no "we".

There is a 'we'. The thing is, it's much more diverse than you seem to think it is, or should be.

Where are we? We're here, whatever 'here' means for each individual.

Where are we going? Who knows?

What are the rules? There are no rules other than those that are agreed/accepted by a particular subgroup of people at a particular time. The question itself is flawed: what are THE rules. There is no THE rules - there are multiple sets of rules.


Like someone said before... there is room for all kinds of sailors. I agree. I am not here to make everyone sail by real rules. My intention is to find other like-minded people, and perhaps slsailing is not the right place to look; I dunno. Please do not hate me for trying to find out, ok...

So start a thread on the subject. "Seeking full ISAF rules sailors" or something.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:37 pm

Dearest Nomad,
Thank you for unlocking my account :-) I can assure you, that I have the best intentions of making sailing on sl more fun, more fair and easier to handle for contestants and race directors. Not all of the sailing people on SL will agree with me on what I want, but the slsailing forum surely is the place for such a debate. Is it not?

Slsailing has effectively monopolized the voice of sailing in SL, and therefore this is the primary - if not the only - forum for such a debate. I now understand the community is tired from years of seemingly fruitless debates, and that the community is reluctant to debate issues that are delicate; Thanx for telling me. I weil keep that in mind and be more cautious with my wordings.

So, you think that the current state of sailing in sl is good, and that I should stop trying to debate this? Just tell me I got it right. You are the moderator, and I will of course do as I am told.

Cheers,
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Nomad Zamani » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:57 pm

Noodle,

As I said in an earlier post, there is nothing to debate. There will never be a single ruleset that is applied in all races, to all sailors. The ruleset that is at the start of this thread - the RRS-SL - is not set in stone. It is only a guideline, and nobody is obliged to use it. Every RD and race committee sets their own rules, which may be the same as the RRS-SL, or something different.

The reason for this is that SL is not RL. It is a form of entertainment, and people come into SL to have fun. The divergence starts when we try to define 'fun'. In RL, if you want to race in anything approaching a formal context, you have no choice but to race ISAF. In choosing to participate in RL racing, we accept that, if it is to be fun, then that fun includes the premise that the ISAF rules are applicable. In SL, that restriction does not exist - there is no global, universally-applicable ruleset. Some people are simply not interested in the formality of racing to a complex ruleset - for them, it isn't fun, and they will never accept someone dictating that they must use that ruleset. People don't come into SL to be told what to do, they come in to do what they like. If they don't like ISAF rules (or even know what that is), then they simply will not turn up for such races.

Trying to get the RRS-SL redefined to be the same as ISAF (assuming that is the aim of your desire to debate the matter) is, in my view, a non-starter. To try and redefine the RRS-SL is to say no more than "these are now the rules", and people that don't want to sail ISAF will still ignore them and not turn up. The rules are not a post on the forum, the rules are what the RD says they are. If you want to promote ISAF racing, then the best way to do that is to get support at the races, on the water - to simply go out and do it. If you want to gauge how much interest there is in ISAF, discuss possible race formats, etc, then feel free to start a thread for that purpose.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Slanty Uriza » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:42 am

I hope she gets it now but I'm afraid she won't, some peoples heads are just too hard...
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:25 am

All, please excuse me, if I offended anyone by referring to four years of old posts in a bad way. I was wrong calling it crap. However, and I hope I wont get banned for this, all those old posts make little sense to a person that was not there. That was what I meant, and I trust most of you knew that.

All please excuse me, if I offended you by using words such as clueless. As I have said earlier on, I can easily see the room for all kinds of sailors. I did not mean to say that anybody is clueless; What I meant was that some sailors appear to be clueless about ISAF rules. I trust most of you can handle that.

Nomad, - I am glad to know that we both prefer a realistic sailing experience with mouselook sailing to the arcade style hovering behind the boat. Seems we are both in pursuit of realism in that respect. You mention people come to SL for fun. I sail and I race for fun in RL, and to me SL sailing and racing is no different. Fun.

Both you, Nomad, and Orca are emphasizing the lovely diversity within SL and SL sailing. The regional disputes I dislike. Otherwise I see the diversity as a strength, and I see it resembles the diversity of RL. That is the precise reason why I think we need a shared and commonly understood set of race rules. Others might agree, and that is why we have RRSSL.

Compared to ISAF rules, RRSSL reverses ROW in a number of frequent seen situations. It has been made clear to me, that I should discuss that elsewhere, as this thread is about RRSSL. Nomad has kindly asked me to start another thread, if I so want. Thank you.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Nomad Zamani » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:57 am

noodleqt exonar wrote:Nomad, - I am glad to know that we both prefer a realistic sailing experience with mouselook sailing to the arcade style hovering behind the boat. Seems we are both in pursuit of realism in that respect. You mention people come to SL for fun. I sail and I race for fun in RL, and to me SL sailing and racing is no different. Fun.

Nice to know there's another mouselook sailor out there. :) I ran a poll once to try and get an idea of what people preferred, and virtually everybody said they sail in chase-cam mode.

One of the things I do for fun in SL is work on develping a boat that I and a partner make (I do the scripts, he does the shapes, textures, etc). He's also an RD and runs races for it, which I take part in. The boat is aimed at beginners - its purpose is to encourage new people to take up sailing and racing, so his races are pitched as fun events rather than serious rules-heavy stuff. The idea is to get them on the water and give racing a try in a boat that's simple to sail. If they like it, they can take things further - try more formal racing, get into other boat classes, etc. For me, these races are a constant test session. Although I'm there to race, I'm always aware of what the boat is doing, watching the other boats, and mindful of comments from others about lag or glitches. Consequently, I prefer the casual format - I need space to think about the product's performance and potential issues, rather than the finer points of the RRS. I don't actually know what his rules are, other than being DSQ once or twice for sailing the wrong course. I tend to go with: don't hit the other boats, starboard/leeward rights, room at marks, room at obstructions, don't hit the marks, do a 360 if I accept a protest against me. I've heard one shout of protest in the last few months, and I don't think I've ever protested anyone in these races. There's usually a noob or two in the fleet, and they often don't know what course they're sailing, never mind things like start procedure and details of ROW at marks. Having to react to a boat that's infringing my ROW is handy, since it gives me a chance to see how well the boat responds to having to sail quickly around an unexpected obstacle. In general, as long as there has been some good, close racing, and the boat has performed well, I'll have had my fun.



The regional disputes I dislike.

I'm of the view that these supposed regional disputes aren't all they're made out to be.


Compared to ISAF rules, RRSSL reverses ROW in a number of frequent seen situations. It has been made clear to me, that I should discuss that elsewhere, as this thread is about RRSSL. Nomad has kindly asked me to start another thread, if I so want. Thank you.


Not sure what you're referring to. Discussion of whether aspects of the RRS-SL should be changed to remedy reversal of ROW in some situations are absolutlely fine in this thread. While one might aruge that changing the RRS-SL to ISAF rules will fix this, such a change will never gain universal acceptance - RRS-SL, and variations of that, are too popular and too entrenched for such a change to occur. So, there's little point in discussing or advocating ISAF here, which is why I suggested starting a new thread dedicated to ISAF racing - there are people who support ISAF.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Jane Fossett » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:25 pm

I agree with Nomad this maybe should be a separate thread.
I'm happy to add a comment or two about past common experience
and my understanding about thoughts to get closer to ISAF Rules.
No surprise, I think we all want a good sailing emulation,
but that depends on what's possible in SL,
the nature of the specific regatta event,
and the interests of the Race Directors planning it.
Can we make a new thread? :-)
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Nomad Zamani » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:55 pm

Jane Fossett wrote:I agree with Nomad this maybe should be a separate thread.
...
Can we make a new thread? :-)


ISAF thread started and stickied.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:13 am

Great!

"Sea" you there ;-)
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