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Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:59 pm
by Jane Fossett
Joyofrlc Acker wrote:... I would say that in general collisions are often far too benign, and not just at starts. ...

Grin. Benign is in the mind of the beholder, I guess.
If you go back through the "Annals of RRLSSL," you will find that Armchair Binder and MarkTwain White both argued that collisions with a marker buoy were far more costly time-wise in SL than RL.
They both thought Rule 31 should be switched off for most SL races, since the penalty of slamming into a buoy was way bad enough.
I've always disagreed, thinking R 31 was something we could actually enforce in SL; however, I politely deferred to my elders here. :-)

I also admit they may have been correct; the issue was more than a 'Rules perception difference.'
The laws of physics changed too!

There were major upgrades to the SL Physics engine following the initial RRLSSL rules consensus.
So please give Elisha Paklena, Bato Brendel, Owen Oyen, Sidewinder Linden (RIP),
and many others a big hug for their strong efforts to keep boats afloat through the different Havok changes...
If collisions are too benign now, maybe that's progress!

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:09 pm
by Orca Flotta
Joyofrlc Acker wrote:PS: At the risk of opening old wounds, it really is a shame that builders cannot get past the optics / politics or whatever and at least use the wwc receiver and interpreter scripts and thereby get full wwc race wind funcionality even if they dont want to go for full Fizz engine.

Trudeau boats are using WWC wind alright.

JT keeps saying (or keeps being quoted) that 90% of her clients dont race. What about long distance cruises? And perhaps thats not quite true for all her boats. I suspect that well over 10% of active sailors of the ONE race it at least some of the time. Not fair to pick on JT Im pretty sure Corry has the same attitude.

I don't have any actual sales figures of Trudeau, actually never had. But I see a lot of Trudeaus all over the grid, and as I''m a curious girl I often clicker them (of course not while they are sailing) to find out who owns them. In 99% it's names I've never heard of before, so obviously not members of the active part of our community. I believe Jacqui when she states that her boats are not much used for racing. Anyway, it dosn't matter much, it's just a question of alignment. Either stick to SL's geography of N=90° or follow Moth's revoluntionary idea of the RL system of N=0°.
About the One I have to say for me personally that boat is much too precious and a much too fine cruiser as to be wasted for buoy hugging.
And in no way was it my intention to pick on JT but just to make clear that I can perfectly understand Jacqui's dwindling interest in dealing with a person like MG, only for the reason to integrate an alien windsystem. Same goes for corry, although her boats are mostly used for races.

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:58 pm
by Joyofrlc Acker
Orca - I should have been a bit more clear ... ONE only (seems to) partially respond to wwc race wind. It hears the initial parms when race start is issued by RD (and hears cruise wind settings until then), but from my testing does not respond to revised settings when race resume is issued by RD (as Fizz, JG44 etc do). I'll check with JT what her intention was.

And ummm v1.15 now uses RL compass for boat wind according to release notes....

Back to the main topic...

Perhaps someone should run a poll on how beneficial it would be to have collisions affect boat performance. Compared to other things (such as more "interesting" wind for long cruises or races).

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:19 am
by Joyofrlc Acker
just for the record ... JT has informed me that her boats are not wwc compatible.
However i think that overstates (understates?) the case, IMHO they are partially compatible in that they respond to race start (but not race resume).

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:30 pm
by Liv Leigh
The WWC is designed to provide backwards compatibility to boats using Kanker Greenacre's SLSF wind system.
What you call 'race wind' in a Trudeau or a WildWind is just that, the boat using the backwards compatibility to the first system designed for race wind in SL. These settings are defined by what is called 'cruise wind' in the WWC. 'Cruise wind' also controls cruise wind settings for Fizz engine-based boats. It is just that these boats can pickup a nr. of extra variables that are not available in the old system.

'Race wind', as the WWC defines it, is picked up by fizz engine boats and a number of new boats like the Quest 2M, the Rene Marine RM8 and a number of new projects in the works. These boats also use more advanced features of the WWC, like:
- waves
- current
- local variations

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:25 pm
by Joyofrlc Acker
No, what I call Race wind is Race wind.
Cruise wind is Cruise wind.
We are in the habit of using temporary Cruise settings for races as older style scripts only respond to that (at least I assume that's the case).

With ONE, if the RD sets Race Wind parms, but does not issue Race Start, ONE will use the Cruise Wind settings.
But if she issues Race Start, ONE will pick up the Race Wind parms. I have tested this.

Im not familiar with SLSAF protocols so I not sure if thats covered by those. I guess I should go look at the scripts. It is of course part of the WWC protocols.
Which is interesting as JT says ONE is not WWC compliant. (I guess that may be true in terms of Moths original "all or nothing" approach but my understanding was that she had modified that somewhat latterly). Of course it does not respond to the current or wave parms.
I have always felt that there would be value in non Fizz engined boas at least being fully "W" compliant, ie the wind part of WWC. And it wouldn't be hard to integrate into any proprietary sailing engine as its "just" a case using the WWC Receiver & Interpreter scripts.

What ONE will not do is "hear" the Race Resume if the Race wind parms are changed after the start. That is true both near the wind setter and far away.
Which is a pity.

[Edited at 9:37 by me for clarity]

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:32 am
by Mockingbird Darwin
A WWC setter holds settings for race conditions and cruise conditions parallel. If a boat comes along, it hears the setter, receives cruise settings and uses them.

If you setup a race, the same boat also receives the race setting, sees if they are meant for him (checks class name, version, nr of crewmembers) and if so, the crew is prompted to sign up for the race.

The WWC setter now holds a list of boats that have joined the race. When the RD changes something in the settings, these new settings are emailed to all the boats no matter where they are.

Besides wind, current and wave settings, the boats have also received a set of local variances. This way wind can be set up to blow around an island, waves can be bigger or smaller in certain areas etc. The setup is not easy, but there is a helpful tool available.

The WWC boats use a special algorithm that simulates gusts and shifts in a natural way, which means that gusts are time and place dependend. 1 side of the course can enjoy a gust, while the boats on the other side are in a lull.

This counts for WWC compliant boats.

The other boats use the old Kanker wind system. No current, no waves, no local variances and a gust system that is only time dependent, which means that all boats have the same gust at the same time even if they are miles apart.
They receive a small subset of the WWC settings and this is brought to them by the chat system. This means that boats always have to be near the setter to be able to pick up the windsettings. There is no way of changing wind parameters once they are set, because the RD will not know which boats did and did not receive the new settings. There is also no way of knowing which of the racing boats use the wind and which boats use their own wind. Racing boats may pick up other setters along the way if they didn't "lock" their wind.

The setter broadcasts a subset of the cruise wind settings on the Kanker frequency for all boats to pick up. In the beginning this was all they could receive. Race conditions were only reserved for WWC compliant boats. But this was a rather harsh way to deal with these older boats. Therefor a modification was made to later versions of the setter. A soon as a RD would setup the parameters for a race and issue a "race start" or "race resume" command, the setter not only starts handing race conditions to the WWC enabled boats, but also starts broadcasting a subset of the race wind settings on the "Kanker" frequency instead of the cruise wind settings it broadcasted earlier. When the race stops or expires, it switches back to broadcasting cruise wind settings.

The "all or nothing approach" as you call it was no political instrument to gain control, no ego massaging action, no anti Kanker protest. The old windsystem was simply insufficient for the Fizz. I needed a new system and felt it would be wrong to create one for the Fizz only.
The all or nothing approach failed. Partly my fault, partly the fault of some sharks that would leave no possibility unused to torpedo it and partly because the system is a bit complex and maybe scares some builders off. I tried to make things as simple as possible for these builders. The scripts are easy to implement, I made examples, made aWWC tako cube, made a boatbuilding kit, but these attempts weren't very successful. If it were remade it could surely be done simpler, but I was using pre-http technology back then.

By reading this thread (and also others) 3 years later it seems very clear that because "all or nothing" failed, it only created confusion, incompatibility and frustration. I am sorry for that.

If you collectively ask me to help you build something new, I will. But you'll have to implement it yourselves and have to make sure all major builders will support it yourselves. Alternatively, if you collectively ask me to remove the WWC from the Fizz boats and switch back to simple Kanker wind only, I will do so as well. But you will have to carry this project yourselves. make sure all the setters are replaced, contact builders, etc. I won't do that part and I won't come back online either.

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:18 am
by noodleqt exonar
Back to Caitlyns post... In SL sailing barging is a problem. Barging is a problem in RL too, but we take countermeasures. Most of these can be applied to SL at no extra cost. They are:

1) Penalty is 720 making it much more expensive to foul.
2) Line skew. A perfect starting line is skewed to give 5 degree port end advantage. (No reason to fight for the SB pin then)
3) We luff and protest, - giving the barger a DQ.
4) Rule 44 says, that if you foul and it gives you a significant advantage, you are required to retire, or the judge will DQ you. A foul giving significant advantage would be the Caitlyn case... someone barging, colliding with several boats, leaving the entire fleet behind bewildered, and with defunct boats.

If people continue to barge despite the implementation of the above four, I'd consider them ill mannered. In RL we'd ask them to stay away or make them stay away by rule 69, gross misconduct. (Like the red card in football). The way I see it, RDs are being softies. Grow up. DQ those idiots, and if you are afraid of becoming unpopular: Stop pleasing the few bargers. Start pleasing all the others.

However, one thing makes SL sailing different with regards to barging: Colliding does not cripple your boat. Again, colliding is really bad manners. Ruining the entire start for everybody else in the fleet is a hostile action. If we cannot grow up and DQ those people, we need to do something else.

So I propose we either make the RD handle that, by giving a time penalty to colliding boats, or we make the boats loose - say 5% - speed for the rest of that race.

Now, about the technology... Nomad seems to see obstructions where Joyofric and that strange bird sees options. So I am confused but confident that a colliding system can be built. So, are those personal issues mentioned by Joyofric gonna stop us from building a better sail simulator?


Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:52 am
by Orca Flotta
noodleqt exonar wrote:3) We luff and protest, - giving the barger a DQ.

Maybe the youngsters among us can do those stunts. For 40+ people who grew up without computers and MTV running the whole day it's impossible to steer a boat, watch the screen and type out a protest call at the same time. Information overload and clumsy fingers. :oops:

69, gross misconduct

Only when you do it in public. :lol:

stop us from building a better sail simulator

"us"? Didn't know you're an employee in the server and network department of Linden Lab now.
Also, for the umpteenth time now: SL is NOT a saiing simulator. Quite contrary, SL isn't intended for the use of vehicles at all, it just wasn't a priority in the basic design of this world. Complain to any LInden about borked sim crossings and they will advice you to use TP instead. TP makes SL a better world, goes faster anyway and puts much less strain on the precious servers. :wink:

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:16 am
by Mockingbird Darwin
It is very well possible to implement a collision detection system. When a collision occurs, the boat can get all the necessary information from the other boat such as location, heading, speed. Then compare this with its own location, heading, speed and wind direction. And on this it can make decision on who was wrong and what penalty should be applied.

It will not be 100% correct in all situations (if it could we wouldn't need judges in RL either) and you will have to accept this and realize this beforehand.

It can probably be applied to all boats. The boats will need to have a basic collision detection script inside. This could be inserted in all boats with mod permissions (you have to find a method for detecting the presence of it btw). Most boats can have the racing rules logic and penalty system inserted as a script + notecard as well. The boats that can't use this can have the helmsman wear an attachment that implements the rules and the penalty system.

I'm not saying this is easy to do and it would certainly help if all boats would at least know if they were racing or not. But you can definitely build it and it would not have a big impact on performance either, since the system would only come in action when a collision occurs.

This was technically. In organisational terms it is a different story. It requires consensus about which rules to implement (even if it is only this barging issue), requires some level of cooperation from the builders and requires someone who is willing to build the system for you. This builder will have to realize that he or she will probably be receiving a shitload of remarks, questions and even accusations, blames and insults over a period of many years to come. He/she will be contacted every time a race was held and someone received a penalty that was incorrect in his eyes or every time some rules issue will come up. So you can imagine that this strange bird is not volunteering for that job.

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:35 am
by noodleqt exonar
Hey there Birdy, - I am hearing Sonny Terry singing "Burnt child"; Too bad really. So many good things could be done in SL Sailing, but the community - somehow - prevents this from happening. Going forward, taking the lead and making changes always causes shit to hit that particular fan that blows in ur direction.

Anyways, I was thinking about something less complicated than a complete rules engine...

I was thinking about something much more realistic. Any two boats colliding will be crippled for the rest of the race, regardless of any rules.

However, it is easy to let the RD simply DQ any two boats colliding, unless one of them protests. Most RL sailors grew up on that rule. Collide and ur out.


Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:07 am
by Mockingbird Darwin
It's more like Charlie "Yardbird" Parker playing "Dizzy atmosphere"

Just make a tiny universal collision detection script to drop in the boats that either:
- applies a backward force to the boat
- or temporarily reduces the windspeed
- or drops the sails
- or deactivates/stalls the sailing engine script
- or change the boat name so it wont be recognised by the line anymore

The problem is that the boat that was hit without its fault receives the same penalty because a hit is a hit no matter who initialized it.

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:50 am
by noodleqt exonar
Love Charlie... so relaxing... playing dizzy atmosphere takes a really concerted effort, though. Something this community is failing to muster.

Anyways, the problem of both boats being punished... is not a problem. It just adds to the realism. Just like in RL... a collision cripples your boat, regardless of where to put the blame. This will force the victims to learn to protest, whereas today... it is easier to just ignore the incident and continue sailing.


Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:58 am
by Jane Fossett
A couple small points:
1. In an earlier post above, Liv was looking for an SL barging video.
Here's Odysseus Yiyuan's video from the J-Classic Round 5 start.
The barge sequence begins around 02:40; I thought it was pretty clear.
Ody's blog is worth a visit:

2. Barging in RL is not only a foul... it's dangerous.
I've always assumed that was one reason for a harsh 720 penalty.

3. Thinking about collision scripts... doesn't it make a lot more sense to start by putting a collision detection script in the race buoys?
Then when a boat hits a mark, the buoy could yell "OUCH!" so everyone knew there was a Rule 31 issue.

(JMHO :-) )

Re: Barging = 720

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:00 pm
by Liv Leigh
There was actually a beautiful barging culture example in the SailOn archives, but it seems that the site does not contain the videos of the entire series anymore. Pity.

Jane Fossett wrote:3. Thinking about collision scripts... doesn't it make a lot more sense to start by putting a collision detection script in the race buoys?
Then when a boat hits a mark, the buoy could yell "OUCH!" so everyone knew there was a Rule 31 issue.
(JMHO :-) )

FYC had buoys that talked to you if you hit them.