Barging = 720

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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Liv Leigh » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:24 pm

I was looking through the treet.tv archives just now for the particular race that showed us a whole fleet of ACA's barging their way into the line. Unfortunately I can't find it back. I was quite interesting. Inform me if anyone else sees it. ;)
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Caitlyn » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:42 pm

My point really isn't so much about barging, as much as it is about flat out ramming to make room.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby noodleqt exonar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:38 pm

Caitlyn, you can luff the bargers, and you can protest them, if they fail to keep clear. Those are your options.

As long as you fail to protest them, you accept their behaviour, and they are rewarded for being bullies.

It might help, if the simulation had collision cause some kind of damage to you boats ability to sail.

However, you are sure to win a protest over a colliding barger, and once a barger has been DQed a couple of times, they might just get it.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Liv Leigh » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:41 pm

That is also what is the case in my example.. And in many races in (recorded) SL Sailing history. People have stopped competing in races because of this.
That is an option. I generally prefer the alternative: get that leeward position pre-start and protect it, protest anyone who tries to get away with a windward foul. The history of Fizz sailing shows there is a lot of progress made here.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Caitlyn » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:46 pm

Liv Leigh wrote:That is also what is the case in my example.. And in many races in (recorded) SL Sailing history. People have stopped competing in races because of this.


I can believe that. It almost comes across more like stock cars than boat racing.

I saw one that actually cracked me up, probably about a month or so ago in a One Cup practice race. Three boats: One nicely on the lay line to the right starting buoy, protecting that position from barging boats (insert laugh here). I was maybe five meters leeward of that boat, and slightly ahead. The third boat was the barging boat. The barging boat came flying in and just cranked the boat that was on the lay line, starboard side bow ... meanwhile the boat that barged didn't even wait for a protest ... the second they hit, they shouted: Foul on me, doing 360. They must have had the text ready ... hey, maybe they have a gesture for it. :wink: :wink: Meanwhile, the boat that got fouled was basically knocked sideways, which forced them into my starboard side stern, rotated me clockwise and pushed me over early.

You can probably guess the rest .. the barging boat was 3/4 of a sim ahead, by the time the other two boats were able to cross.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Nomad Zamani » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:16 pm

noodleqt exonar wrote:The more technical implementation would be to make the boat go down in speed by five percent per collision. I am sure the boatbuilders of SL can do this. Make it last for one race, then clear.

There's an idea in there, but the SL collision system is a bit limited, and implementing a collision handling method to do what you describe isn't so straightforward.

An object that is set up to detect collisions will detect all valid collisions, whether they are with boats being raced against, race marks, other vehicles, non-phantom prims, or moving/turning avatars. It is possible to filter detected collisions based on object name, but that assumes that all of the other boats will have at least part of their names the same (race ID will differ at least). People do occasionally rename their boats, and the ability to do that immediately opens up an exploit to prevent one's boat passing through the collision filters of the other boats. That aside, name filtering gets more tricky in mixed fleets, since a given boat builder doesn't neccessarily know the (default, at least) names/makes of other boat classes that might be raced against.

If you can't reliably filter by name, you'd have to just decide that all collisions cause damage, and somehow infer their severity - spearing a boat should result in more damage than brushing against a race mark, for instance. However, there is very limited scope for inferring the severity of a collision. About the only thing that can be done is to note how long the collision lasts - a long collsion equating to more damage. However, people might not be too keen on their boat going steadily slower every time they nudge a prim when out for a cruise or a mess about. One might think that it can be made switchable, but that would mean that it can be switched off for racing (or just not switched on). Can't really use race wind as a way of switching it on - people sometimes cruise using race wind. Same goes for clearing it between races - how does the boat know when a race has finished? If it's cleared manually, then there's another exploit.

I think the basic issue is that, as a means to discourage unfair play, the collision system doesn't really work because quite a lot has to be done to remove the potential exploits, and it still wouldn't be perfect. Not saying it's a bad idea (I experimented with it a couple of years ago), just that it's hard to do properly and reliably such that the general fun of racing isn't compromised.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Liv Leigh » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:29 pm

In many cases the only way to get out of it seems to be: 'hold the line'. Do not give any room whatsoever to a boat that barges in, warn them in advance, do not bother to avoid a collision, but let them come and at the moment they crash into you, you protest. If you execute this well, their race is ruined too. If they don't get it, try again next race.

This may not win you a regatta, but sometimes you need to keep clear of silly wins for the benefit of the greater good.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby noodleqt exonar » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:08 am

Caitlyn, that story deserves a bigger audience. Again, it would be less fun to barge like that if the penalty was a double turn or a DQ. The stock car racing style in SL sailing is precisely what made me stop racing and start my quest of rule-stalking, err - rules-talking.

Nomad, I hear you saying it is difficult, - not impossible. I like difficult. I really dunno enough about SL script, but the boats talk to the line and they talk to the windsetter. If they can windshadow each other, they I am guessing two boats could be able to figure out, they are in the same race.

We gotta start somewhere, and I'd start with class-boat racing. Let boats of similar type collide and degrade. Can the boats see details of objects with which they collide? Name? How about type info? My boat would be IDed NE71 or something, but will my boat not reveal, that it is a Fizz 3.07? To me it seems quite allright to have to rerez in order to clear a collision.

Here's another scenario: How about the windsetter or the raceline delivers a list of boats, which subscribed to that race? Then - in a collision - a boat gets the name of the colliding object and looks it up in an internal table. If it is there - boom, go slower.

There are things to think about... such as cheats. We always shout RDY before sailing. What if we made that mandatory, and that shouting RDY triggered a command in the boat to download a list of all other boats in the race?

Just playing with the idea here...

:-)
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Orca Flotta » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:16 am

noodleqt exonar wrote:We always shout RDY before sailing. What if we made that mandatory, and that shouting RDY triggered a command in the boat to download a list of all other boats in the race?

That's a very good idea anyway, not only regarding the collision/barging issue. I notice quite often that racers become very unresponsive briefly before a start. Sometimes it appears they have fallen asleep or crashed or went AFK or whatnot. So, when asking the fleet if they are ready, I'm glad to have 50% responses. But I can't wait forever, so with more or less of a bad conscience I start the countdown anyway.

On the other hand, as clever as that script might be, I don't think it's very handy to stuff even more scripts into our boats. Our first and foremost concern as SL sailors should be to fight lag. Only once we have very slim and unlaggy boats we can start thinking about leisure activities like using them for races.

And here's yet another idea to deal with barging: in the Triumphal lagoon we do downwind starts. That is not only funny and kinda special since it requires impeccable timing but also gets rid of the barging problem.



.......... the racers hate me for it though. :lol:
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Nomad Zamani » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:18 am

noodleqt exonar wrote:Nomad, I hear you saying it is difficult, - not impossible. I like difficult. I really dunno enough about SL script, but the boats talk to the line and they talk to the windsetter. If they can windshadow each other, they I am guessing two boats could be able to figure out, they are in the same race.

The boats don't talk to the line - they are blissfully unaware of its existence. The line detects the boats when they pass through its prims at the start and finish. They do talk to the windsetter when they look for race wind, but, ordinarily, don't talk to it again unless they look for race wind again. The windsetter could have a list of boats that recently got race wind, but they aren't all neccessarily boats that are in whatever race - the wind setter knows nothing about races and doesn't talk to the line. The fact that some boats can do wind shadow doesn't mean they know anything about which boats are in the current race. In fact, no boat actually knows it's in a race.

Basically, there is a whole load of intelligence and communication that doesn't exist, which makes it rather hard to ensure adequate filtering to model a collision damage system. The sailing infrastructure, and relevant boat building/scripting conventions, would have to advance somewhat before something like this could be implemented in such a way as to keep false positives to an acceptably low level. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but it would need some coordination amongst various builders (infrastructure and boats) for it to occur. Historically, such coordination has been a tad fractious.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby noodleqt exonar » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:14 am

Thx, Nomad... I fear you are right about the coordination.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Orca Flotta » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:21 am

Not only coordination, Noodle, also wilingness and interest. Jacqui Trudeau claims that 90% of her customers do never race, have never heard of our global community that claims to represent all of sailing in SL.

Also, psssht, this is just some insider's talk, so this stays between just us, ok? ... some people are saying it was indeed Ms Dibou torpedoing her own initiative of coordinating a singular sailing/racing system, by insisting on the fact that there is only one possible system, her WWC. Maybe she's right about it technically, but from a human standpoint it's very understandable that most other builders more or less told her to get lost.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Mockingbird Darwin » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:11 am

Nomad Zamani wrote:The boats don't talk to the line - they are blissfully unaware of its existence. The line detects the boats when they pass through its prims at the start and finish. They do talk to the windsetter when they look for race wind, but, ordinarily, don't talk to it again unless they look for race wind again. The windsetter could have a list of boats that recently got race wind, but they aren't all neccessarily boats that are in whatever race - the wind setter knows nothing about races and doesn't talk to the line. The fact that some boats can do wind shadow doesn't mean they know anything about which boats are in the current race. In fact, no boat actually knows it's in a race


Just replying to Nomad's post to clarify things. I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe what i say has nothing to do with the topic.

The lines can very easily be informed by the setter of all the boats that are in a race. And in fact they should, because only then you can ensure that every competitor uses the same wind and you infor the line of the not only the boat id's but also the names of it's crew. Yuu scripted a good implementation of this but I don't know if it was ever used.

The setter knows which boats are in the race and will inform them of any changes in wind or whatever when the RD applies them. The boats also know they are in a race.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Slanty Uriza » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:57 am

Mockingbird Darwin wrote:Just replying to Nomad's post to clarify things. I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe what i say has nothing to do with the topic.

The lines can very easily be informed by the setter of all the boats that are in a race. And in fact they should, because only then you can ensure that every competitor uses the same wind and you infor the line of the not only the boat id's but also the names of it's crew. Yuu scripted a good implementation of this but I don't know if it was ever used.

The setter knows which boats are in the race and will inform them of any changes in wind or whatever when the RD applies them. The boats also know they are in a race.

In the old days racing was so simple, you started, you finished, the first one to finish won the race.
Now, lines have to talk to windsetters, windsetters have to talk to buoys, they all have to talk to boats, the boats talks to the RD and while all that is going on the sailor makes a 720 because she barged or violated some other rule. No wonder many racers stopped racing, it all got so complicated.
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Re: Barging = 720

Postby Joyofrlc Acker » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:20 pm

To be clear ... the wwc setter does know the boats in a race if those boats are following "the" protocols and have subscribed to the race (come on down Fizz, JG44 etc).
Old fashioned boats (and for the sake of clarity I'm not saying that old fashioned is bad) don't however subscribe to races.
Id agree with Orca however that this would be one more burden on the poor old simulators ... at least until we get that "central sailing server" Ive heard whispers about (tho not recently lol). Is this the best use of ny additional simulator capacity?
Having said that, I would say that in general collisions are often far too benign, and not just at starts. True, sometimes LL rides to the rescue and arranges monster lag for the colliders but that is temporary.

Can the pirates give us any hints? They must have ways of blowing (only) each other up? I assume their boats dont explode if they touch the dock?

PS: At the risk of opening old wounds, it really is a shame that builders cannot get past the optics / politics or whatever and at least use the wwc receiver and interpreter scripts and thereby get full wwc race wind funcionality even if they dont want to go for full Fizz engine.
JT keeps saying (or keeps being quoted) that 90% of her clients dont race. What about long distance cruises? And perhaps thats not quite true for all her boats. I suspect that well over 10% of active sailors of the ONE race it at least some of the time. Not fair to pick on JT Im pretty sure Corry has the same attitude.

PPS: Look for some 'enhanced' JG44 races before too long ... (and yes, Ill start a new thread for that)
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