Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Slanty Uriza » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:50 am

Suzi Siemens wrote:Whatever we may-- or may not-- have gained from this "Appeals Process"

IMHO....

It Was Not Worth It.


The "Appeals Process" should be REMOVED from the rules at the earliest possible moment.

Before it "teaches" us anything else LOL

Well, it taught us something else already, it taught us some people take themselves far too serious
Last edited by Slanty Uriza on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Caitlyn » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:53 am

I fall in with Suzi, and probably many others on this one. The appeals process should be removed, before it 'teaches' us anything else.

I asked Mr. White in a different thread, exactly what was learned from this whole adventure. It was a serious question, and the serious response was, that we learned how appeals should be handled in races here on Second Life (paraphrased). Please take the statement in the following paragraph, as an indication how how it looks to one single person, without claiming to know anyone's motivation or judging anyone's intent. I can't look into anyone's heart and know what's in there ... so again, this is only how it looks, to me.

The lesson I learned, is that the proper way to appeal a race on Second Life is to shout your arguments in open chat, possibly playing to the audience, discounting the accomplishment of the actual winning boat as nothing more than luck ... so as to intimidate the judges into offering an appeal of a crash-based decision that has not been offered to any other boat in the entire regatta. For the third time, I'm not saying that's how it was ... only how it looks to me.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby noodleqt exonar » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:52 pm

Ok Caitlyn, I can understand why you see it that way. My perception of the whole situation was and is, that we really felt it was a waste of everybody's time - racers, RDs, RCs and all others, - to race like that. We really felt it was not a boat race. We then chose to protest and take it all the way, to start a debate on bad conditions and how to handle them.
Now, it is not for me to say the process was wrong; We just played within the rules in the NOR. However, it sure was different from an RL scenario. In RL these things - protests and appeals - are handled in a much more discrete way, thus avoiding the hefty community wide debate, that we've seen here.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Chaos Mandelbrot » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:27 am

noodleqt exonar wrote: We really felt it was not a boat race.


It never was a boat race, it was running pixels around in second life.

noodleqt exonar wrote:We then chose to protest and take it all the way, to start a debate on bad conditions and how to handle them.


So then the decision was "F*** the regatta, we have an agenda to pursue!"

noodleqt exonar wrote:In RL these things - protests and appeals - are handled in a much more discrete way, thus avoiding the hefty community wide debate, that we've seen here.


So secrecy is the preferred option? That would have gone over very well.

I assume you will not bother to race in future regattas since your public agenda has been achieved. Your secret agenda, of course, remains secret.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Orca Flotta » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:33 am

noodleqt exonar wrote: bad conditions and how to handle them.


Well, there is only one practical way to handle them: just go on as planned and hope for the best. Bad conditions are not really forseeable, so why bother?
Honestly, what did you expect RC and RD to do? Cancel it all, scrap the results from friday night, cancel the parties, send all the spectators and staff and racers in later slots home? Jeopardize the whole OW? Stop having fun?
See, the problem was bad weather. Something that's not in our hands, something we don't have any influence over and the RC is not responsible for. It's not like former disputed decisions by the RC, man made bad conditions, but indeed just bad weather. So wear 2 PFDs and heavy weather gear, your heaviest rubber boots, grit your teeth and prepare for crash.

Noodles, this reminds me on a particularly bad regatta I once was sailing as crew for my big sister. It was in your country: Fyn rundt 90 or 91 I believe. It was so calm, some hundred boats didn't even finish inside the time limit of 72 hours. Wasn't really a problem for us since we were sailing a Luffe 40, which was a darn speedy boat at the time. But imagine all those poor Folkebad sailors in their nutshells. Most of them didn't really have a chance to beat the cut-off.
Still I haven't heard of a single protest against the RC afterwards.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Bea Woodget » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:35 am

Chaos Mandelbrot wrote:So then the decision was "F*** the regatta, we have an agenda to pursue!" ... I assume you will not bother to race in future regattas since your public agenda has been achieved. Your secret agenda, of course, remains secret.


Please Chaos, This is an affirmation and extremely serious accusation, based on your simple opinion.
And what if I tell you that some of my posts, doesn't reflect a critical side, but a perfectionist side, that I can not stand mediocrity when one could do great things even easier. Do I deserve a spanking? Do not say "yes!" or assume...
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby noodleqt exonar » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:10 pm

Well, Orcs... I am not the skipper. A protest is the skippers call. I wasn't even in the boat that day. Ask Liv what she feels about that race. Naturally, I back my team mates. If they say it was a worthless race, - then I believe it was just that.

U ask me what I expected. It all went so fast; There was no time to establish expectations.

I did not in my wildest imagination expect the mess this protest produced. I sure did not expect anyone to cancel a party. I sure as hell did not expect anyone to cancel the whole thing. I just expected a swift and to the point protest hearing with a clear ruling, and then "next race". Business as usual.

The jury handed us the option of appeal when they told us their decision. They went "We've decided this unanimously, BUT you can always appeal". It was an invitation. We had to appeal. They practically begged us to appeal.

:-)
Noodle

PS: Chaos, your assumptions about my thoughts and reasons are incorrect.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Orca Flotta » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:54 pm

noodleqt exonar wrote:Naturally, I back my team mates.

Why? Is that the usual "american" misconception of loyalty? "I'm with my skipper/husband/family/army unit/gang no matter what?" That is just terrible!

If they say it was a worthless race, - then I believe it was just that.

It was maybe worthless for Liv but not for the reasons she cited. The race was totally fair. It was not as if the lag hit your boat exclusively. The lag was fairly spread out over the whole fleet. No question about that. Was it a joy to sail in that race? Probably not. But then again, when was sailing in SL ever fun?

I did not in my wildest imagination expect the mess this protest produced. I sure did not expect anyone to cancel a party. I sure as hell did not expect anyone to cancel the whole thing. I just expected a swift and to the point protest hearing with a clear ruling, and then "next race". Business as usual.

See! That's why I always ask ppl to first think about the consequences of their actions before setting something in motion that might as well get out of control. And this was not just any silly protest hearing about some ROW situation, it was a protest against the bad weather, against the OW organisation, the RC and the RD. It was handled swift and to the point indeed. Protest denied, next race please, business as usual. What did you expect (oh yes, or didn't expect) to happen if Liv's protest was successful? As was mentioned by someone else already, the round consists of 4 heats, if one of those is rendered as invalid, then according to the effect as decribed by Mr Domino the whole Rd 4 keels over. Simple and inevitable consequence. "Sorry guys, you worked for a whole week or longer, but you're not good enough for Liv, so pack your things and go home. The lot of ya!"

The jury handed us the option of appeal when they told us their decision. They went "We've decided this unanimously, BUT you can always appeal". It was an invitation. We had to appeal. They practically begged us to appeal.

The option was not handed to you, you had it all along. Oh wow, if you interpret the friendly reminder of the appealing opption as "begging" than I can only hope that no judge ever will give you any information further than the absolute minimum.

PS: Chaos, your assumptions about my thoughts and reasons are incorrect.

I can't talk for Chaos but to be honest I had the same feeling when I read your post. It sounded just too obvious and biased not to reach those assumptions.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Caitlyn » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:50 am

Orca Flotta wrote:Why? Is that the usual "american" misconception of loyalty? "I'm with my skipper/husband/family/army unit/gang no matter what?" That is just terrible!


With roughly three-hundred million of us ... we probably don't have an actual concensus on things like loyalty.

We do have American cars though ... and not very good ones.
American music ... yes, and a good bit better than our cars.
American food ... mostly what we can make cheaply.
American loyalty though ... not quite so universal. :wink:
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Liv Leigh » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:24 am

Orca Flotta wrote:
noodleqt exonar wrote:Naturally, I back my team mates.

Why? Is that the usual "american" misconception of loyalty? "I'm with my skipper/husband/family/army unit/gang no matter what?" That is just terrible!

Noodle is not American.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Jane Fossett » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:29 pm

Liv Leigh wrote:Noodle is not American.

Caitlyn wrote:With roughly three-hundred million of us ... we probably don't have an actual consensus...

I think Caitlin has a good point: USA is pretty diverse.

Two days ago I had a brief chat with Chaos about different views of the New York Times...
He noted the publication is not very popular in Texas. I agreed I knew some who shared that view:

[2011-02-11 06:04:53] Jane Fossett: I have an associate who calls it 'the Pink Paper'
[2011-02-11 06:05:13] Chaos Mandelbrot: haha; thats the London Financial Times.
[2011-02-11 06:05:29] Jane Fossett: I asked 'So why do you subscribe to it?"
[2011-02-11 06:05:36] Jane Fossett: Answer:
[2011-02-11 06:05:46] Jane Fossett: "I was thinking of getting a puppy."


Anyways, my point is that USA is a big place, and thats ok; it has lots of good sailing spots!
I also admit some of us have pretty narrow views of what US policy should be;
God I love the NYT!!! :-)

Image

Note: the above chart is NOT approved for navigation purposes.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby noodleqt exonar » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:27 am

Would the Appealing Authority please be so kind as to put the latest ruling, reruling and rereruling in this thread for completeness.
Thanx
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Orca Flotta » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:49 pm

@ Caitlyn, Liv: I know Noodle is a Dane, I know not all USAmericans think alike, I knew my prenature metaphor would get me into trouble in the moment I typed it.
But it's only my trouble so please stop worrying. I was kinda angry when I typed it and needed to get it off my chest.
And I also analyzed some past discussions and found out there is a huge difference in the definition of "loyalty" between the USA and the rest of the world.

If anyone felt offended by it I'd like to appologize profoundly.
If anyone was really badly offended I obviously poked in an open wound and can only respond with: "Haha, told you so!"
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Caitlyn » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:21 am

Orca Flotta wrote:And I also analyzed some past discussions and found out there is a huge difference in the definition of "loyalty" between the USA and the rest of the world.


What you found out Orca, is the difference in definition in loyalty between the people in the discussions you analysed ... a sample group that is likely so small, it would tend to make any greater conclusion, intellectually dishonest.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Liv Leigh » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:58 am

Let me quote Noodle again, since the trolling is taking over this thread:
noodleqt exonar wrote:Would the Appealing Authority please be so kind as to put the latest ruling, reruling and rereruling in this thread for completeness.
Thanx
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