Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby MarkTwain White » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:25 pm

.
.
1.0 Authority
1.1 There does not exist in SL Sailing any ruling body or authority to whom a race committees decision can be
appealed, the SLSA being no more than a communication medium.
1.2 The authority for an appeals judge to rule on a protest of a race committee lies wholely within the wording of
the One World NOR which provides for an appeals judge.
1.3 Extrapolating from the ISAF rule 71.4 it is declared that the ruling of the Appeals judge
in the present matter will be final.

2.0 Appeals Procedure
2.1 It is the ruling of this appeals judge that the appellant, Liv Leigh, has satified the
requirements of ISAF Appendix F: Appeals Procedure and therefore has the right
to a ruling on her protest.

3.0 Documentation
3.1 The formal hearing has been conducted by means of the Topic: Official PROTEST HEARING
on the SL Saling Forum. Address:
http://www.slsailing.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5667

4.0 Preamble to Decision
4.1 Over the course of the history of sailboat racing in Second Life there have been
many attempts to use some or all of the Racing Rules of Sailing as published by ISF.
4.2 This hearing represents a first in SL Sailing. It is an attempt to apply the real world
portion of the rule book dealing with Infrastructure rules (i.e. the legitimacy of protests,
race committee rulings and authority for judgments in a virtual world based on real world rules)
as opposed to ROW rules and the like on the water. In other words this Appeals Process
deals with off the water rules, not on the water rules.

5.0 Rule 32.1 and Rights
5.0.1 Rule 32.1 gives a race committee the ability to proactively shorten or abandon a race
where conditions adversely affect safety or fairness. Safety not being an issue in SL sailing,
we will focus on the “fairness” issue.
5.0.2 On the NARROW view that Liv protested the right of the race committee to accept the race as valid
if they felt it was a fair race, we could rule against the initial appeal on the grounds that,
rightly or wrongly about the facts of fairness, the race committee acted within their rights
under 32.1
5.0.3 HOWEVER…

5.1. Rule 32.1 and Fairness
5.1.1 Noodleqt exotar make a good observation when she said: “No rules tell the RD
when to cancel. It is a matter of judgement. Some of us feel this particular race
was over the edge. Whatever the ruling will be, it will get us all a clearer understanding of
what sailing in SL is".
5.1.2 This appeals judge finds this argument and others metioned below convincing.
5.1.3 The number of crashes and restarts in this race are strong evidence that this race
could not be won by the skills of the sailors, but rather by being the luckiest boat
on the chaotic waters present at that time.
5.1.4 The elapsed times for the races of the day, with the race in question being significantly
out of line with the other races is also evidence of the anomalous nature of this particular race.
5.1.5 The fact that, as Jane observed, “all four boats completed the course and had valid finishes”
is not proof of fair sailing conditions any more than a tidal wave taking over boats and
depositing them on shore past the finish line makes the order of their position on the beach
a valid measure of who won the race.

5.2 Acknowleging Good Points from the Race Committee
5.2.1 Without ruling directly on them this appeals judge acknowledges the logic of Jane’s testimony
on behalf of the RC when she states “"Crashes" are anticipated in ONE WORLD races,
and crash-recovery is written into the Rules so teams can keep racing over a long course.
It's true that bad sim function can interfere with sailing, and that often may seem unfair.
However, in this race no sim went 'off-line' and no sim was so overloaded it blocked entry
(several boats did appear to 'hang up' at a particular sim edge however for unclear reasons).
The protest committee reviewed the evidence and unanimously denied Liv's protest.
The group consensus was that lag, slow sim boarder crossings and crashes were
not sufficient reason under Rule 32 to cancel an SL race.”

5.3 Acknowleging Good Points From Liv’s Late Posts
5.3.1 Without ruling on directly on them Liv made two excellent posts that can be found here:
http://www.slsailing.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27352#p27352
5.3.1.1 The posts are:
5.3.1.1.1 The fairness of the racing conditions;
5.3.1.1.2 and, the responsibilities and possibilities of the Race Committee

6.0 Request for Redress and Abandonment
6.1 Based on the comments made in 5.3.1.1.1 and 5.3.1.1.2 Liv applies for a redress
under Rule 62 (for sake of a “little” bit of brevity I omit quoting the rule).
Liv argues that “since all boats in the race were affected by the issues I
described in 5.3.1.1.1 , the only option left in case of a redress, will be to abandon the race.
Whether this should result in a rerun of the race on the original or a shorter course,
an adjustment in the scoring or any other arrangement is up to the appeal judge, I guess.”
6.2 The Appeals Judge Approves Redress and Abandoment.
This appeals judge agrees and orders the race abandoned. Additionally each boat in the race
is granted points (if points are proper in the scoring system) equal to the sum of points
available in the race divided by four (in other words the boats all get the same score,
which is the mean of the points available in the race).

I commend all that participated in this hearing process for your professional presentations.
SIM PRESERVATION PROJECT -- http://simpreservation.com
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Orca Flotta » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:57 pm

Please excuse my noob english skills but does the decision mean NO REDRESS?

If I was the winner of the race I'd appeal the last ruling as well, feeling robbed of my points. But that aside I wanna thank Mark for his time, his labour and the very professional ruling.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Francois Jacques » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:13 pm

Thank you Mark.

A sailor made an interesting remark regarding a race where lag and crashes predominated. "Why should sailors practice all week only to have the race determined by the whim of crashes."

My response: "Arduous practice is salutary in reducing to the extent possible the fact that adverse SL sailing conditions will cause a poor result."

(And a lot of attention in preparation is spent to ameliorating the possible effect of lag and crashes (from no prim attire to sophisticated graphics adjustments.)

I read the outcome of this protest hearing to mean: "If boats race under sufficiently onerous conditions, the results of a One World Regatta Race will be abandoned."

In short: lag and sim crashes no longer determine the outcome of the race in all cases?
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Kentrock Messmer » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:37 pm

A race that a race committee or protest committee abandons is void but may be resailed.
I guess this ruling falls under the “other arrangement” part of rule 64.2.
Liv’s original protest was under Rule 32.1 and Fairness. Fairness would dictate that the entire Round 4 be abandoned.

Under rule 66 I request that the hearing be reopened.
Last edited by Kentrock Messmer on Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Jane Fossett » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:50 pm

I appreciate the efforts and advice of all involved.
I reviewed all the participants in ONE WORLD, and looked at the options.
It now no longer works.
If a unanimous decision of a half dozen of the best, smartest sailors in SL fails to stand because of lag....
I no longer have any way to do this regatta.
It's partially a victim of size. I can't commit two dozen teams to race for over two months, and work for many weeks to get their schedules coordinated...
Then tell everyone they need to repeat it all again because one team complained of lag.
That will happen every single time we race.
It fails.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Jane Fossett » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:51 pm

I very deeply appreciatel everyone's efforts,
and I apologize.
God bless.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Elbag Gable » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:33 am

What a load of utter pompous and unnecessarily claptrap.
This has killed One World
SL sailing should be fun not a subject to a tirade of unbelievably tortuous rules and regulations.
This is a sad day for SL sailing, a very very sad day.
Get a life your pursits and accept the fact the in SL we ARE subject to lousy sim performance and instead of making ridiculous technical complaints and objections invoking ridiculous judgements with no thought for the bigger picture we should all be pressuring Linden to get their backsides into gear and making their software and sim transfer algorithms working properly to provide us with sim stability both on land and at sea.
I think we NEED Jane Fosset and her undoubted organisational skills and we NEED things like One World to provide the inerest, impetetus and momentum we need for promoting Sailing to a wider audience...
This ridiculous pomposity has effectively set sailing in SL back considerably and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Now wake up all of you !!!
Elbag Gable
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Fruit Islands
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Kentrock Messmer » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:12 am

Well said Elbag, I believe this is the point of Liv’s protest boat, to make the issue Linden Labs. If she destroys the One Cup in the process one more feather in her cap. Her team quotes Rule 32.1 and Fairness.
How fair is this to everyone else who sailed through the lag, crashed got back and continued racing. This is SL it is what it is. My point is if they want to make a rules issue out of this lets do it. Then we take a pole and see what the sailors think.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Slanty Uriza » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:21 am

Elbag Gable wrote:What a load of utter pompous and unnecessarily claptrap.
This has killed One World
SL sailing should be fun not a subject to a tirade of unbelievably tortuous rules and regulations.
This is a sad day for SL sailing, a very very sad day.
Get a life your pursits and accept the fact the in SL we ARE subject to lousy sim performance and instead of making ridiculous technical complaints and objections invoking ridiculous judgements with no thought for the bigger picture we should all be pressuring Linden to get their backsides into gear and making their software and sim transfer algorithms working properly to provide us with sim stability both on land and at sea.
I think we NEED Jane Fosset and her undoubted organisational skills and we NEED things like One World to provide the inerest, impetetus and momentum we need for promoting Sailing to a wider audience...
This ridiculous pomposity has effectively set sailing in SL back considerably and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Now wake up all of you !!!

Applause!
Slanty Uriza
 

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Alain Gloster » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:21 am

Without disputing the ruling, I've seen a lot of talk about how this compares to the RL RRS dispute system

Why can't we be better than that?

Its not like were competing for a 100+ year old trophy

It's not like we've spent a years salary on our boats

It's not like we've spent more on the legal team than on the sails

Congratulations to the racing sailors for managing to bring sailing in SL down to the level of sailing in RL
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Bea Woodget » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:18 am

Jane Fossett wrote:I appreciate the efforts and advice of all involved.
I reviewed all the participants in ONE WORLD, and looked at the options.
It now no longer works.
If a unanimous decision of a half dozen of the best, smartest sailors in SL fails to stand because of lag....
I no longer have any way to do this regatta.
It's partially a victim of size. I can't commit two dozen teams to race for over two months, and work for many weeks to get their schedules coordinated...
Then tell everyone they need to repeat it all again because one team complained of lag.
That will happen every single time we race.
It fails.


Come on Jane , please.
There are many options to get this OW working. One race is cancelled (on more than 30), there is very few effect on the whole 9 events regatta, and overall scoring system may be tuned if necessary.
You went with RRS (more or less), the process of the request for redress was interesting for the example.
Few days ago, Liv asked me what to do in case her request were denied. I think I told her: "You are a competitor, accept the decision, shut up and do your best to win that bloody competition" (or something like that).
I"d like to tell you the same: regardless the decision, please accept it, and go on. We ll help you to fix any issue with scoring if necessary.
If you give up, you destroy all efforts so far, including yours in this thread. This amounts to disapprove a process that you have set up yourself (this appeal). It is really counter productive and dangerous for sl sailing.
Accepting the decision, is the way to go (even a duty), no matter you agree or not. It will reinforce sl sailing.

Jane please....
And what if I tell you that some of my posts, doesn't reflect a critical side, but a perfectionist side, that I can not stand mediocrity when one could do great things even easier. Do I deserve a spanking? Do not say "yes!" or assume...
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Isis Rexie » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:21 am

Shakes my head disappointed with the egos and pompous process around what should be a fun event. Get over yourselves people.

Sails back to Fruit Islands to sail in a relaxed environment with Elbag*
Go Mango!!!!! :-)
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the optimist expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails.”
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby noodleqt exonar » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:21 am

Win some, loose some... NEXT RACE!
In pursuit of realism... http://noodleqt.blogspot.com
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby joro Aya » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:54 am

sooo... we are pompous. are we?

a racer protested, as was Her right. what were we to do? just ignore the protest? just pretend everything was smooth as butter and move on?
i'm sure the "bumpercar racers" amongst You who don't care about rules at all would have been happy then, but anybody who takes sailing (RL or SL) half serious can understand that because of the nature of the protest there wasn't much else the committee could do then let the whole sitiuation play out.

a sailer protested.
the committee handled the protest to the best of their abilities.
the sailer appealed.
the appeal judge handled the appeal to the best of His abilities.

i understand some people are not happy with the outcome. i'm not too happy about it myself.
but please explain, how does this make any of us who did the best they could POMPOUS.

Sails back to Fruit Islands to sail in a relaxed environment with Elbag*

that would be the same Elbag who wrongly accused a member of Buzzz and threatened to ban that member from all fruit island sims without bothering to first get His facts straight? talk about pompous...

this will be my last post on this forum. i've had enough.
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Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

Postby Bea Woodget » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:03 am

Francois Jacques wrote:Thank you Mark.

A sailor made an interesting remark regarding a race where lag and crashes predominated. "Why should sailors practice all week only to have the race determined by the whim of crashes."

My response: "Arduous practice is salutary in reducing to the extent possible the fact that adverse SL sailing conditions will cause a poor result."

(And a lot of attention in preparation is spent to ameliorating the possible effect of lag and crashes (from no prim attire to sophisticated graphics adjustments.)

I read the outcome of this protest hearing to mean: "If boats race under sufficiently onerous conditions, the results of a One World Regatta Race will be abandoned."

In short: lag and sim crashes no longer determine the outcome of the race in all cases?


I think we can not consider this decision as a rule engraved in stone and landmark court forever.
This is a timely decision in a particular case, with conditions that appear to be extreme.
In other places other circumstances, another judge, or even the same judge could have decided the other way. That's what makes the charm of any decision by a judge, and justifies its existence, right?
99% of the normal races are not affected by this.
I consider this an exceptional decision, facing exceptional circumstances.
Anyway, the judge ruled, the procedure is followed as mentioned, next race.
And what if I tell you that some of my posts, doesn't reflect a critical side, but a perfectionist side, that I can not stand mediocrity when one could do great things even easier. Do I deserve a spanking? Do not say "yes!" or assume...
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