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Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:43 am
by MarkTwain White
One World Cup Official Appeals Hearing January 30,2011
================================================

I have been asked to rule on a protest of the Rules Committee that occurred after a race in Round Four of the One World Cup.

Since it is not practical to get the number of people together that need to be part of this hearing, we are going to conduct the hearing by way of a Topic Dicussion on the SL Sailing Forum. The public is encouraged to observe but is asked to remain silent. The participants in this protest hearing are:

1. The Race Committee members that made the original ruling.
2. Liv Leigh and any witnesses she asks to participate (which at this point appear to be two in number)
3. Myself as the appeals judge

This can be a good learning experience for everyone in the SL sailing community.

==============================

From Liv Leigh:

I protested the Race Committee at the 6AM timeslot at One World Round 4 under rule 32.1, demanding them to abandon the race completely due to highly unfair racing circumstances. This was done in a race in which already 2 recalls had taken place and several dozens of region handoff-crashes with all 4 involved sailing teams.

I'd like to bring to the meeting:
miss Noodleqt Exonar, my team tactician and wandering rulebook
miss Wendy OHare, sailor for a competing team and witness

Regards,

Liv Leigh
SVC-472 (that's the name of our team)

======================================

From Jane Fossett (on behalf of the Race Committee)

Liv protested the 6am race under Rule 32, claiming that race conditions were not sailable.

The Protest Committee for the 6am race was: Silber, Chaos, Jane, Hay, Joro, and Orca

The weather conditions were poor, and there were two general recalls. The third attempt went much better, but each of the teams did crash at some point during the race. lag in several sims was significant.
However, all four boats completed the course and all had valid finish times.
"Crashes" are anticipated in ONE WORLD races, and crash-recovery is written into the Rules so teams can keep racing over a long course.
It's true that bad sim function can interfere with sailing, and that often may seem unfair. However, in this race no sim went 'off-line' and no sim was so overloaded it blocked entry (several boats did appear to 'hang up' at a particular sim edge however for unclear reasons).

The protest committee reviewed the evidence and unanimously denied Liv's protest. The group consensus was that lag, slow sim boarder crossings and crashes were not sufficient reason under Rule 32 to cancel an SL race.
It's easy to think of truly terrible grid condition that would make sailing impossible, but in this case all four racing boats completed the course and had valid Finishes.
That fact alone seemed to negate any Rule 32 claim, since by definition the weather was not unsailable; the whole race fleet successfully sailed it.

Liv will send you her side of the story.
Thank you for offerring an opinion and making an Appeals ruling!

===================================

MTW: Kentrock Messmer’s post in the official One World thread regarding the wording of rule 32.1 (i.e. The committee “may” abandon, not “must” abandon) has been duly noted and is considered part of the testimony already submitted.

====================================

MTW: In the SL version of administering the appeals process, I declare that this hearing is called to order at the time stamp of this post and shall remain open for 24 hours. After which time I will issue a ruling in a timely manner.

Let the process begin.

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:56 am
by MarkTwain White
Additional Notes:

1. Because of variations as to time stamps, I revise the info in the first post to "the hearing opened at 6:50AM SL time on January 30, 2011 and shall close at 6:49AM on January 31, 2011

2. There is no order of presentation. Participants may post when they wish.

3. The text of Rule 32.1:

32.1 After the starting signal, the race committee may shorten the course
(display flag S with two sounds) or abandon the race (display flag N,
N over H, or N over A, with three sounds), as appropriate,
(a) because of an error in the starting procedure,
(b) because of foul weather,
(c) because of insufficient wind making it unlikely that any boat
will finish within the time limit,
(d) because a mark is missing or out of position, or
(e) for any other reason directly affecting the safety or fairness of
the competition,
or may shorten the course so that other scheduled races can be sailed.
However, after one boat has sailed the course and finished within the
time limit, if any, the race committee shall not abandon the race
without considering the consequences for all boats in the race or
series.

Re: Offical PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:07 am
by Jane Fossett
Cross-posted from ONE WORLD thread:
Jane Fossett wrote:
Kentrock Messmer wrote:The key word is “may” not “ must”. ...
Kentrock Messmer wrote:32.1 After the starting signal, the race committee may ...abandon the race...
(e) for any other reason directly affecting the safety or fairness of the competition...
However, after one boat has sailed the course and finished within the
time limit, if any, the race committee shall not abandon the race
without considering the consequences for all boats in the race or
series.

I agree with Kentrock on this. The RC has an option to abandon a race, but no requirement to do so.
A racing boat cannot protest the RC's choice not to abandon.
However, if the RC decides to abandon after the race has finished,
a racing boat can protest that decision, arguing the RC did not consider the consequences for all boats.
That view's consistent with the opinion discussed in the ISAF Appeals Manual that I referenced in the earlier post.

For the reasons cited by Kentrock, I believe Liv's protest is invalid,
and the specific details of lag, crashes, etc. are not relevent.
A boat cannot protest the RC for failing to abandon a race.

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:01 am
by Liv Leigh
I have no occasion to state my case properly until I have consulted our team tactician Noodleqt Exonar on the matter. Since I will not be online tomorrow due to RL obligations and will probably be gone for most of tuesday as well, I'd like to ask for a longer response time. The current situation would make me dependent on sunday evening only to collect my witnesses in SL and write my story on the situation.

Liv Leigh
SVC-472

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:46 am
by Liv Leigh
I have called the following people as witnesses:
- Tig Spijkers, SLCG Coast Guard
- Wendy OHare, Floating Boaters crew member, racing at the 6AM slot
- Noodleqt Exonar, SCV-472 team member

I am taking this case seriously, as I believe it affects the credibility of SL Sailing tournaments as virtual sailing competitions. I hope the organisers of One World and it's race staff will understand this.

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:05 am
by Jane Fossett
Liv Leigh wrote:I have no occasion to state my case properly until I have consulted our team tactician Noodleqt Exonar on the matter. Since I will not be online tomorrow due to RL obligations and will probably be gone for most of tuesday as well, I'd like to ask for a longer response time. The current situation would make me dependent on sunday evening only to collect my witnesses in SL and write my story on the situation.
Liv Leigh
SVC-472

The Protest Committee for the 6am race was: Silber Sands, Chaos Mandelbrot, Jane Fossett, Hay Ah, Joro Aya, and Orca Flotta.
Silber Sands was the #1 Judge, and officially speaks for the group.
I discussed this with Silber earlier today and she thought more time would be appropriate,
so there's no objection to Liv's request for extension.
The decision is up to the Appeals Chair.
However, I'd like to request we resolve this no later than 2pm Friday
so the issue doesn't interfere with planned Round Five ONE WORLD events.

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:34 am
by Jane Fossett
Liv Leigh wrote:...I am taking this case seriously, as I believe it affects the credibility of SL Sailing tournaments as virtual sailing competitions.
I hope the organisers of One World and it's race staff will understand this.

Absolutely.
Many sailors don't make protest calls because they're racing to have fun, and they don't want to argue.
That's unfortunate; Protests are part of the sport, and there's no 'argument' involved, unless you're Dennis Connor.
Winning a protest helps improve everyone's sailing, and losing a protest
gives a race team a chance to demonstrate their 'Sportsmanship.'
Besides, if you don't lose a few protests... you're just not racing hard enough. :-)

I think Liv's protest is appropriate, valuable, and touches on some core issues in SL racing; let's raise the issues and get a ruling.

(but in that context, I still think Liv's protest is invalid and should be dismissed,
since "A boat cannot protest the RC for failing to abandon a race.") :-)


Image

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:48 am
by Tig Spijkers
As requested the SL Coast Guard presents the original Report from the OIC CDR Frimon

Patrol Report 29.01.2011 - Report No. 42

Patrol started: Saturday, January 29th 2011 06:00 am SLT
Patrol ended: Saturday, January 29th 2011 08:30 am SLT


Targets:

- Race Security One World Regatta Round 4

Sims Covered:

Sims according the race chart

Problems Encountered (if any):

- many love of LindenLab


Any Other Comment:

In my view this race was an absolutly disaster. The race started 3 times and finally there was lag all over the course. I dont know how it went cause I ghosted at the end.

following Staff attended:

Tig, Messner, Ansaja, Micky, Thorn, Dondy, Collin, Ranger

Thx to all of you and especially to Ranger and Tig who took over command as I ghosted.


Submitted By:

FirEfiGhter Frimon
Station Commander
Burj Al Arab Station
SLCG 6066

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:57 am
by Slanty Uriza
This is all too funny :D :D :D :D :D

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:00 pm
by MarkTwain White
In light of the comments above from Liv and Jane I am extending the deadline for testimony to 12 Noon this Thursday February 3.

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:03 pm
by MarkTwain White
Slanty Uriza wrote:This is all too funny :D :D :D :D :D


Once again. I ask that the general public please refrain from commenting on this topic. We are making this process transparent so that those of you that wish to learn how competitive sailing occurs in RL can see that process. If you feel the need to comment, please start a separate topic. Thanks.

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:29 pm
by Liv Leigh
This is Wendy OHare's statement. She has no account on this forum, but you can verify her story with her inworld..
Wendy OHare

Appeal World Cup round 4.

I like to file appeal against race held,
Because the conditions we had to race in where so bad, ( due to lag)
that many boats not even responded properly, steering ,trimming.

Some sims did have so much lag that we came to complete stops.

In Mimitz we crashed so bad, and took us so much time.
That boat was destroyed, and with 4 recovery windsetters form officials
we couldn move in any direction.

This is very short story about conditions, and are prove for worse conditions
on that day. Saterday 1/ 28/ 2011 round 4 off Worl Cup.

Therefore i think restart off complete race is needed, to give anyone in that
race a fair change to gain position in World Cup 2011

Friendly Greetings Wendy OHare

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:37 pm
by Bea Woodget
MarkTwain White wrote:We are making this process transparent so that those of you that wish to learn how competitive sailing occurs in RL can see that process.

Those of you that wish to learn about Protests, Hearings, Redress and Appeals processes may also visit the Sailing Academy in-world at Santa Barbara, sphere "Zephuros", 1st Floor, self paced training, slideshow titled "Introduction to the Racing Rules of Sailing – Level 5 - Protests, Hearings, Redress. "

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:07 pm
by noodleqt exonar
Greetings,
Thanx for playing :-) As Jane writes, we are still playing as this is really part of the game. We are not here to point fingers or to p*ss anyone off. Everybody did a wonderful job that day. We're here to figure out if there is a better - more correct - solution to a problem experienced by the protesting part - based on the NOR, the rules and the RCs best judgement.

Kentrock is right. 32.1e says may,- "the RC may cancel the race". Thus the RC is not required to cancel a race.
IMHO it has little bearing on the case at hand. Liv is not saying the RC is required by 32.1e to cancel.

Generally speaking, the conditions are always the same for everybody. While this is true, it is the job of the RC to provide conditions suitable for fair racing. Sometimes the conditions are simply out of the RCs hands, and they are not to blame. Conditions unsuited for racing include bad weather, earthquake, no or light winds or extreme cases of changing wind directions and forces. Not cancelling unfair races invalidates the racing itself. There is no point in racing like that. Noone wants to win, and noone wants to watch. The essence of sport itself is simply not present. That kind of conditions would normally make the RC cancel or postpone. The above is true for RL.

Liv was in a boat that day, as was some of the wittnesses. This protest does not change the points earned in the race. It asserts the fact that to everybody - the contestants, the race, the event, and the sailing community as such - it would be a better solution to cancel and reschedule this race. Reason being - ofcourse - extreme conditions leading to results that do not in any way reflect the racing skills of the teams in the race.

I have no comments on specific issues until I have met with my Team-lead.

Cheers,
Noodle

Re: Official PROTEST HEARING: One World Cup Round 4

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:47 am
by Orca Flotta
Cross post from One Word thread:

I know I know, I promised not to post to this forum anymore. :oops:

But let me chime in with my 2 €urocents regarding the round 4 Sat 6am race (yes, the now infamous "Liv race"). We all know quite well that this slot always proved to be particularly bad for using vehicles of any sort. But eventhough round 4 was my respectively TrYC's responsibilty, sailors have to understand that hosting clubs are bound to the general rules of the OW Regatta as well. And these rules state clearly that the 6am slot is to be sailed and further that single races must not exceed a 1 hour timeframe. With 2 general recalls we were already at a duration of 2 hours when the race was finished. Please don't assume I was happy with the weather conditions or sending your poor racers out there but I just had to do it!

Nevertheless, regardless of the outcome of Liv's appeal, I'd be more than happy to scatch the results and have the race all over again at another time if ...

1) all participating teams agree on having another try at it
2) all participants can agree on a suitable time
3) these decisions are taken animously
4) the racers find enough judges willing to do it again

I'm awaiting your input. That means I'll do shit to organize it. :mrgreen:

Thank you very much
Orca


PS: For everybody in pursuit of realism or wanting to use SL as a real sailing simulation, please just take a look at the photo of the protest hearing with a dozen or so avies hovering above the water. :lol: