Page 2 of 2

Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:18 pm
by Jane Fossett
Grin I admit I can't figure out the difference between a minimap blackout and a crashed sim on a minimap. particularly across different viewers.
I think we agree on the underlying issue, however:
If a critical sim crashes in front of the oncoming fleet, an RD can declare a fleet recall.
I'd also argue that:
If a critical sim crashes in front of the oncoming fleet AFTER a race boat passes it or Finishes,
the decision to recall the fleet is now a protestable issue.
It's not exclusively the province of the RD to deny a win and pull the fleet back for a restart.
Is that wrong?

add:
If I finished a grueling race in first place under horrible conditions,
I'd be extremely 'pissed' if the judges cancelled the win after-the-fact.
Last year TrYC won that kind of race "in spades" in Round Three J-Classic; a pretty wondrous ride.
Waypoint's team came in last place in that race, and they crashed at least ten times.
Waypoint crossed the line all smiles... and we were all waiting. :-)
The winners and losers that day proved a point about SL Sailors.

Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:28 am
by Armano Xaris
Grin I admit I can't figure out the difference between a minimap blackout and a crashed sim on a minimap. particularly across different viewers.
I think we agree on the underlying issue, however:
If a critical sim crashes in front of the oncoming fleet, an RD can declare a fleet recall.
I'd also argue that:
If a critical sim crashes in front of the oncoming fleet AFTER a race boat passes it or Finishes,
the decision to recall the fleet is now a protestable issue.
It's not exclusively the province of the RD to deny a win and pull the fleet back for a restart.
Is that wrong?


Jane i would argue in common sense that when we want to simulate real life sailboat racing
well it's not the right decission not recalling the fleet after a critical sim crashes or disappears
from mini map reported bye several competitors. Though i admit the last point is hard to
determine well. Also when this happens after a boat allready passes that crashing or disappearing sim.

When a boat is allready finished then you can't recall the fleet i think. Now i think about it a boat can
MAYBE ask for the place in the race where the trouble with the sim started. Like when someone needs to be
safed out of the water bye a racer who leaves the race for that, then this racer who leaves the race
can get the points of his place where he left the race (normally) to my understanding.

With reference to this i should have asked for that after race :). I admit i asked for the wrong thing
in my call for redress grin though that is not important for the discussion.

add:
If I finished a grueling race in first place under horrible conditions,
I'd be extremely 'pissed' if the judges cancelled the win after-the-fact.
Last year TrYC won that kind of race "in spades" in Round Three J-Classic; a pretty wondrous ride.
Waypoint's team came in last place in that race, and they crashed at least ten times.
Waypoint crossed the line all smiles... and we were all waiting.
The winners and losers that day proved a point about SL Sailors.


That is off topic Jane. I argued clearly that crashing is different from sims
disappearing from minimap or appearing offline.

I understand the feel you want to give though, and i agree bad conditions do not
take away the feel of a community effort/ feel which is a good thing,
and one of the reasons i still race in second life.

Armano

Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:40 am
by noodleqt exonar
I am with Armano all the way here...

It is the RD and only the RD who can cancel or recall a running race, and it is the duty of the RD to cancel or recall the race, if the conditions - somehow - prohibit fair racing.

After the race... sailors can protest against the race, if they feel there has been serious procedure faults or weird conditions. Again, fair racing is usually the issue.

Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:07 am
by noodleqt exonar
A few very specific suggestions regarding cancellation.

Cancellation in a series is problematic only if there are heats. If a heat
is cancelles, it would give average points. Postponing is preferred. Having
a backup plan with a short plan b course might be a good idea

The NOR should emphasize that cancellation happens at the RDs discretion
with no option for appeal.

1) The race will be cancelled by the RD, if there are three general recalls
due to technical problems.
No protest or appeal possible.

2) The race will be cancelled by the RD if two or fewer boats finish within
the timelimit set to xx (say 125% of expected sailing time) minutes.
No protest or appeal possible.

3) The race will be cancelled if there has been no good start within yy
(say 25?) minutes.
No protest or appeal possible.

4) The race MAY be cancelled by the RD, if the boats have not had the
same amount of crashes, and one boat asserts this a being unfair.
No protest or appeal possible.

5) The race MAY be cancelled by the RD, if any technical problems
make fair racing impossible.
No protest or appeal possible.

Just a rough sketch inspired by RL and SL.
Noodle

Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:51 pm
by Jane Fossett
noodleqt exonar wrote:A few very specific suggestions regarding cancellation.
...Just a rough sketch inspired by RL and SL. ...

I appreciate your suggestions and they sound reasonable, but I'm not so sure they are "inspired by...SL"
Several of us have recently talked here about grid conditions and how they influence racing, and there are many opinions.
My guess is all those views are colored by perception and fueled by rhetoric. Without data, its all hot air.
After half a decade of SLSailing, my guess is we have a lot of information
that's relevant to our communal perception of what's a good race emulation,
and what's just "Boats in Brownian motion' on a display screen.

I'm going back through the transcripts of major Cups events for the past few years,
trying to see how grid performance affected the races and how the sailors and regatta RC's responded to it.

The past 'de-facto acceptable standard' for those major race events may not satisfy you, or maybe me either, we'll see;
but it does provide objective data that's genuinely reflective of what SLSailing actually does.
Anything else is just well, sort of 'arbitrary and capricious' at best, and 'full of sound and fury' at worst.

Does that make sense?

Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:18 am
by noodleqt exonar
Take it easy, Jane, it is not meant as a nothing or all package. It's just a few ideas for the catalogue of measures we can take to stop the race 4 chaos from happening again.

My post is not fueled by anything but a genuine wish to make things better.

The de-facto standards in sl sailing appear to me as if they're created for SL as it was years ago. Hackers delight, lousy boats, slower computers, dial up connections. Real persons with real lives need time limits. It is not realistic to expect people to wait forever for a start or race. The same real people don't wanna spend an entire afternoon sailing by pushing the reboot button. Maybe your perspective of sl sailing is geeks only. I dunno. U confuse me here.

This is a computerworld. You cannot expect data of the past to reflect the future. The idea was to try and establish sensible rules not related to SL specifics but still dealing with the effects of SL specifics.

It is much easier to use time limits than it is to write specific rules into the NOR, - such as if a boat looses camera, if people get ghosted, if starting line scripts are buggy, if there are rolling retards, if this and that...

I prefer "If SL won't let you start or sail at the time of day ur scheduled, then don't sail. How is it determined that SL won't let u sail? By a few simple rules.

Are u making sense? You start by saying "reasonable", then you question my authencity, then u say "hotair", and u end by saying "arbitrary and capricious". I am beginning to think this is an insult.

No, I don't think you're making sense, but we can talk about it inworld. None of us seem capable of making sense here.

:-)
Noodle

Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:29 am
by noodleqt exonar
Hahaha, have a look at that:

http://alphavilleherald.com/2005/09/ten ... s_bef.html

I'd say Marktwain was right, and I'd add that little progress has been made since 2005.

Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:00 am
by Hay Ah
A little bit offtopic perhaps, i found this post rather late, but the baltic minimap 'blackout' is just a simwide structure beneath the water surface at the bottom of the sea....
It is some kind of maze and as long as i can recall it, it has always been there...
Real minimap blackouts can sometimes be client side connection problems only effecting 1 viewer and sometimes more viewers.
This is related to the nature of clients connecting to a server in second life. (ip adress mapping, ports, personal firewall settings, internet related traffic, etc)
So, to keep things simple, if some percentage of a fleet is halted at such a sim (wich appeared as gone or blackout on minimap), it should be logical for the RD to restart the entire race.
The real problem, as it appears most of the times, is how someone who had bad luck can accept the RD and/or RC decision for continueing the race.
When rules don't cover these sorts of conditions, a certain percentage of loss to a certain degree is accepted as being representive for the entire race.
But this is rather vague...
Perhaps in the future we can classify certain sim issues and give 'intensity' points to them.
Like a crash of someone is 2 points, a sim dissapearing is 5, etc
So when the average points of the fleet is exceeding a certain treshold, the race should be restarted...

Or we keep relying on the instinctive nature in these matters of an RD and/or RC.

Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:11 am
by Jane Fossett
noodleqt exonar wrote:Take it easy, Jane, it is not meant as a nothing or all package. It's just a few ideas for the catalogue of measures we can take to stop the race 4 chaos from happening again.
My post is not fueled by anything but a genuine wish to make things better.
The de-facto standards in sl sailing appear to me as if they're created for SL as it was years ago. Hackers delight, lousy boats, slower computers, dial up connections. Real persons with real lives need time limits. It is not realistic to expect people to wait forever for a start or race. The same real people don't wanna spend an entire afternoon sailing by pushing the reboot button. Maybe your perspective of sl sailing is geeks only. I dunno. U confuse me here.
This is a computerworld. You cannot expect data of the past to reflect the future. The idea was to try and establish sensible rules not related to SL specifics but still dealing with the effects of SL specifics.
It is much easier to use time limits than it is to write specific rules into the NOR, - such as if a boat looses camera, if people get ghosted, if starting line scripts are buggy, if there are rolling retards, if this and that...
I prefer "If SL won't let you start or sail at the time of day ur scheduled, then don't sail. How is it determined that SL won't let u sail? By a few simple rules.
Are u making sense? You start by saying "reasonable", then you question my authencity, then u say "hotair", and u end by saying "arbitrary and capricious". I am beginning to think this is an insult.
No, I don't think you're making sense, but we can talk about it inworld. None of us seem capable of making sense here.
:-) Noodle
"Arbitrary and Capricious" is a legal term; there is no disrespect.
We're all looking for simple, fair standards that are also flexible.

Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:18 am
by Bea Woodget
deleted