Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

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Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Armano Xaris » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:18 am

After round 2 of the ONE regatta i realised nobody took as far as i know ever up to start discussion about
what to do in specific racing cases, considering the trouble with lag etc we experience
in racing in sl.

Let me kick off discussion with a draft of possible trouble we experience and a proposal
on what could be a good solution.

Let's start to say i think only about cup races now. I think other races should always be
approached more flexible, loose.

I will state also a few obvious things, but for further reference i think it's good to
summarize a complete package in this thread.

Competitors in cup races (sailboatraces) will be called in the following racers.
The people who organise the regatta/ cup will be called committee.

-----
Racing situations (cup races)

1. Single or multiple racers crash, get their camera constrained on a
sim crossing etc etc. Mostly these situations happen in different sims.

These are individual cases which are a trouble for the competitor, but don't ask for
a reaction of committee. It's in the nature of boat racing in sl that we can crash.

2. Roughly 80% or more of racers crash in the same sim or on the same simborder.

It should be adviced to restart the race.

3. Racers can't continue to complete the course because a sim went offline.

It should be adviced to restart the race.

4. Racers can't continue to complete the course because the next sim does not show
on their minimap. Which mostly means you will crash when you try to move into
the next sim which did not show on minimap.

When enough racers report the same issue it could be adviced to restart the race or
exclude the score from the overall ranking.

It's tricky though as when the next sim is not showing up is a thing that can't be checked to
my understanding bye committee. So the above should be only taken into consideration
carefully, and possible not be done because things are difficult to check.

5. When a sim in the racecourse restarts during the race and it makes any racer crash it's
adviced to restart the race.

-------
So far my view on how to react on specific sl issues in cup races. Comments expected :).

Let me end this post bye saying organisers of sailboat races and especially cup races in
second life deserve much respect as it's no easy thing to do. My remarks/ suggestions are
just meant to be supportive, and to start discussion to see how much we could be on
the same ideas or not.

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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby joro Aya » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:18 am

i think a desission to stop a race and restart will be a very hard one to make and i would hate to be the person to make that desision.
that said, i think that some things like sims that are part of the course going offline should definately be reason for a restart. so i strongly agree with Your point 5.
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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Liv Leigh » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:29 am

The problem here is of course that a race that lasts for 40 minutes will run way in overtime if it is going to be restarted. Race 3 of round 3 would seem like a clear case for a restart to me though.
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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby noodleqt exonar » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:36 am

Here's a realism perspective...

1) I agree on no 1. As in RL, if ur gear breaks down - no matter what the reason, it is just too bad.

2) I agree on no 2. As in RL, if almost all boats cannot complete the race due to conditions being bad, then the race is usually considered unfair and cancelled.

3) If the course is unsailable, there is a problem. In RL a race would surely be cancelled, if an earthquake suddenly formed an island on the course. But... bouys do disappear in RL too, and the course can be changed "in-race" if need be. The RD just informs all boats of the change. However, if u cannot sail around the problematic area (sim), then there is no other option than to cancel the race.

4) This is kinda like the same as 3... it is just seing no 3 happening before it takes place. No?

5) Not sure. It seems unfair to the boat in the restarting sim to continue. However, it is always risky to sail, and boats do breakdown - even in an RL scenario. Is this maybe just a special case of no 1 or 2?

Just my few cents...
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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Jane Fossett » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:19 pm

I'm still thinking about the issues Armano raised. I agree they are important, but I think they're also complex.
I've a few comments based on J-Classic and the current ONE WORLD Regattas:

1. In last year's J-Classic Round 3, the first race leg was a many-sim upwind beat from the Spoondrift line. There were five crewed J-Class tacking through a one-sim-wide corridor.
One of the critical sims just ahead of the fleet went offline. Jeremia Spotter issued a general recall of the fleet, and restarted the race.
All agreed with that decision.
A similar problem occurred in 2009 Fizz Cup Round Five.
I think we might all agree that if critical sims go offline blocking the whole race fleet, the RD can abandon that race and make a general recall.

2. Once a racing boat crosses the FINISH line, however, RULE 32.1(e) applies, and an RD can't easily abandon the race.
32.1(e) says in part:
"...after one boat has sailed the course and finished within the
time limit, if any, the race committee shall not abandon the race
without considering the consequences for all boats in the race or
series."


3. I'm impressed that we often see different things on our viewer displays that strongly influence race decisions. There are several 'beta server versions' currently deployed on the grid, and they seem to get frequent updates. I'm having trouble recognizing 'typical patterns' for a crash or border crossing hand-off failure. After the 12 Noon race on Saturday, Armano reported that a sim had crashed. I was one of the judges in that sim (or next to it) at the time, and I didn't see it go down. I understand Fruit Islands' records show the sims in the region stayed online.
I'm not arguing with what Armano saw, since I've also had several experiences recently where sims looked 'crashed,' and other sailors proved me wrong. Armano's sim was clearly 'ill' during the race, no argument there. :-)
My point is just to say we often see things differently on our screens, and need to be cautious with judging and broad rule-setting.
My own solution to this is to try to get a large group of experienced sailors together to help judge, and then have an 'Appeals' process announced and in-place.
However, I agree that's not the best fix, and we should have some broad agreements; thx to Armano for raising the issues!

R.I.P. Cacio Tomsen,
who crashed in Fizz2009 Round Five: :-)

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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Jane Fossett » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:01 pm

Armano Xaris wrote:... 5. When a sim in the racecourse restarts during the race and it makes any racer crash it's
adviced to restart the race. ...
To illustrate the difficulty here: Assume it's a ONE WORLD round, and five boats are already finished and happy.
The sixth boat sees a sim 'blink off' on the edge of the course. The Team thinks fast and makes a tactical decision:
They intentionally tack into it and crash.
On return, they invoke Rule 5 and demand Restart Redress.
(<--- votes 'no' on this Rule) :-)

My point: We need to make races fair,
but we can't make crashing a tactical advantage.
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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby elMegro Magic » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:33 am

Jane Fossett wrote:
Armano Xaris wrote:... 5. When a sim in the racecourse restarts during the race and it makes any racer crash it's
adviced to restart the race. ...
To illustrate the difficulty here: Assume it's a ONE WORLD round, and five boats are already finished and happy.
The sixth boat sees a sim 'blink off' on the edge of the course. The Team thinks fast and makes a tactical decision:
They intentionally tack into it and crash.
On return, they invoke Rule 5 and demand Restart Redress.
(<--- votes 'no' on this Rule) :-)

My point: We need to make races fair,
but we can't make crashing a tactical advantage.


…Right, the worst in SL it's able to cheat in some ways and no manner to prove it…

By other hand, unfortunately, SL lacks stability. And "guilty or not" I'm always assume a crash as an broken mast, ripped sail, etc. Things that occours in RL rought condition, specially when my experience came from windsurfing… Let the good luck rules, as Noodleq said.

After my time sailing here I have register some "rare" regions behauvior. Last time I've sailed after a sim cross all my equipment and I were invisible but keep control and managed the view mouse look cam. But my avi showed on minimap were at the border line. Anyway I keep sailing and crossed to another sim… et voilà! Recover total visible, cross again and same effect… All that in "normal" sailing control. Interestingm isn't?

Some rare times, no info at minimap or a look on map show a red sim down/restarting, but in effect can be keep sailed. That's 'cause SL has lag about itself info too...

Other times in crewed sailing fleets, the thing goes bad, flying, mouse look onboard-remote look sims away…

Nightmares apart, I consider that if 3, 2, even one sailboat -depends of racing rules in use or racing type- finishes kick and alive, any restart must be done.
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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Armano Xaris » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:05 pm

3. I'm impressed that we often see different things on our viewer displays that strongly influence race decisions. There are several 'beta server versions' currently deployed on the grid, and they seem to get frequent updates. I'm having trouble recognizing 'typical patterns' for a crash or border crossing hand-off failure. After the 12 Noon race on Saturday, Armano reported that a sim had crashed. I was one of the judges in that sim (or next to it) at the time, and I didn't see it go down. I understand Fruit Islands' records show the sims in the region stayed online.
I'm not arguing with what Armano saw, since I've also had several experiences recently where sims looked 'crashed,' and other sailors proved me wrong. Armano's sim was clearly 'ill' during the race, no argument there. :-)
My point is just to say we often see things differently on our screens, and need to be cautious with judging and broad rule-setting.
My own solution to this is to try to get a large group of experienced sailors together to help judge, and then have an 'Appeals' process announced and in-place.
However, I agree that's not the best fix, and we should have some broad agreements; thx to Armano for raising the issues!


Jane i think it has maybe to do with our cache. Many times when i had severe lag it results in the end in sims not showing up
in my minimap. In this particular unique case i was not the only one, but also if i recall right don and joly experienced the same and reported
it even on the group chat. It happened even clearly in the same sim where if i remember right at least 3 boats stopped or slowed down.

So that is why i made a difference between sims not showing up which just happens and sims being offline or restarting during race.

I think a sim restarting during race will practically not used bye sailos to gain a tactical advantage. Let me say also that in a technical
imperfect world there will never be completely water tight solutions. I can't believe that. But we can try to make it as good as it can get, struggling
along the way :)
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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Jane Fossett » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:40 pm

Armano Xaris wrote:... I think a sim restarting during race will practically not used bye sailos to gain a tactical advantage. Let me say also that in a technical
imperfect world there will never be completely water tight solutions. I can't believe that. But we can try to make it as good as it can get, struggling
along the way :)

I agree 100% with Armano on this.
Hopefully all together we make progress.
"Full ISAF Rules" is a good example.
Thx to Noodles for pushing this issue again.
I think most of us are now on the same page, and trying to use the full ruleset for serious events.
Well... "SL-Serious" Events.... :-)

In that vein, here's a funny pic from December 2006.
Lachlan Campbell's at the tiller, loudly swearing in his SL-Scottish brogue, as we head up Glida into the next-door sim... which was crashing on top of us... :-)

I liontaib Dé go ghcastar simm, Lachlan.

Image

Addendum: I went back and looked at all the pics... the orange boat in the lead above was either Francois Jacques (08 FJ) or Cory Copeland (KC 52). :-)
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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby noodleqt exonar » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:49 am

Let me just outline the "good luck rules" thingy...

Good luck rules everywhere in SL and in RL. Good luck is distributed upon us all by whatever Gods we might believe in :-D Tadah! So over time, the best sailor will win the most, no matter how bad the lag or the sim crashes.

It is no fun to be crashed out in a long race; True, so in long races, it might be an idea to address the issue. However, the instability of SL - very much - resembles the instability of an RC race. They allways break down. Ice, batteries, mast overboard, radio conflict, water in the servo, collision and what not.

For that reason we usually hold a series of short races, where we have well defined recovery timeslots available between the flights. If noone is hurt, we just start the next race immediately. The RD would adjust the number of throwaways according to the conditions, - based on a non counting test race.

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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Liv Leigh » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:56 am

Jane Fossett wrote:
Image

Isn't that the Welsh flag painted on the sail?
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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Jane Fossett » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:58 am

Armano Xaris wrote: ... Racers can't continue to complete the course because the next sim does not show on their minimap.
Which mostly means you will crash when you try to move into the next sim which did not show on minimap.

Armano Xaris wrote: ... i think it has maybe to do with our cache. Many times when i had severe lag it results in the end in sims not showing up
in my minimap. In this particular unique case i was not the only one, but also if i recall right don and joly experienced the same and reported
it even on the group chat. It happened even clearly in the same sim where if i remember right at least 3 boats stopped or slowed down.


I agree the minimap blackout issue is an interesting problem, I'm not sure what to make of it.
I sailed for an hour on the Round 5 course today with no crashes.
While crossing Baltic sim, I saw it blink out on the minimap (see below).
I had no problems continuing sailing, and the sim was still present on the World Map.
Shrug... I think this is Linden mischief, of uncertain consequence. :-)

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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Armano Xaris » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:01 pm

Ho Jane. That is a peculiair picture.

Let me be clearer again. Sims do not
get black on mini map in my experience. They disappear.
And sure thing you won't be able to continue then.
You will crash.

And i think it has to do with heavy lag etc, and
probably with cache issues. Under heavy conditions
it can pop up at the same moment, and it can be
considered in my opinion to do something with the ungoing race
when multiple racers report it through chat.

We had in practice the same thing sailing with a
fleet of japanese sailors. All crashed at same
point on round 4 course OW course when sims disappeared.
Almost sure sims went not offline but disappeared off minimap

What you see on your pic i never experienced.
That is a different kind of issue.

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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Bea Woodget » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:19 pm

Correct Armano. "blackout" on the minimap and disappearing sims (light grey/blue or like a out of world on the minimap), are two differents cases. Blackout sims are "sailable", while sims disappearing will cause a crash.

I'd say:

blackout sim: sailable, so what, sail on!

disappearing sims (crashes): cancel the race, general recall, switch from "plan A" to "plan B" (backup chart), restart the race.
And what if I tell you that some of my posts, doesn't reflect a critical side, but a perfectionist side, that I can not stand mediocrity when one could do great things even easier. Do I deserve a spanking? Do not say "yes!" or assume...
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Re: Racing cases for RD's/ committee's

Postby Chakku451 Rieko » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:19 pm

Surely the RL race governing bodies have protocols in place covering catastrophic occurences, like...say...an earthquake or volcanic eruption centered along a race course, that could be adapted for use inSL. A sim going down in the middle of a regatta sounds pretty castrophic to me.

But what do I know? I live in a cave and actually admire and trust the one man in this so-called sailing community that about a dozen of you like to use as a pinata regularly. :P
When life gets you down and you feel totally depressed, there's only one thing to do...

RAISE SAIL!!!

=^.^=
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