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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:52 am
by Liv Leigh
Nomad Zamani wrote:How is/can the following rule be implemented in SL?

---------------------------
1.2 Life-Saving Equipment and Personal Flotation Devices

A boat shall carry adequate life-saving equipment for all persons on board, including one item ready for immediate use, unless her class rules make some other provision. ...


I would argue the opposite of Nomad here: life-saving equipment on boats in SL is very adequate for all persons aboard, namely non-existent. Since technically speaking, in SL there is no one aboard, there is no one to save either in the event of a crash. :D

In RL I have been disqualified on base of this rule though :P

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:08 am
by M1sha Dallin
Nomad Zamani wrote:... picky as it may seem, all, or nearly all, boats should be DSQ as soon as they start to race.

That is probably the first time that Nomad has made me laugh :D

Rita wrote:.... while you prefer to create more issues (RRSSL)

Not really - it was attempt at humour - and obviously missed. IMO until its possible to at least judge a cross with certainty, then for me, it's all a pointless argument. How can you make a call when you are all three of crossing ahead, behind, or inside a RoW yacht? Especially when all particpants really do have different views. YMMV of course, so as has been mentioned many times before - there is room in SL for everyone. If you want ISAF, run ISAF.

quirky torok wrote:...Rita, Noodle.. come on put up or shut up...

Quite - and there rests my last comment on the subject.

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:16 am
by Orca Flotta
Nomad Zamani wrote:There may be one or two class associations, but I don't know if any have class rules, or whether there is a class rule negating the need for immediately-deployable life-saving equipment.


As owner and chairwoman of the Forty44Four Class Association of SL I can tell you, no, we don't have any specific ruleset or changes made to any existing race rules. That is each RD's business, not that of the class association. The 44 is mainly used in big boat races and there it has to comply to the same rules like all the other contenders.
In fact I founded the 44 Group only for the specific reason to help promote this fantastic race boat and organise a list of ID and Command Channel numbers. At the time when I founded the group many of us were still hopeful the RCJ-44 might maybe turn out to be the next Tako. That's basically all.

Oh, and it's usefull for spamming race announcements. :mrgreen

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:17 pm
by Jane Fossett
Rita wrote:... 3.
Jane Fossett wrote:Many of the Rule details are contingent on RL issues and constraints;
they often do not apply to SL, and actually would cripple any effort to make a faithful online race emulation here.

This argument is wrong, often used, but I am still waiting to read about a valid example.

I think there are several Rules issues that don't work well in SL; we need to carefully review, test, and discuss them.
I was thinking of Rule 26 in particular when I posted my earlier comment.
A rigid series of flags and horns is necessary in RL to communicate with the racing fleet.
If any RD wants to use the Rule 26 flags and horns, that's fine with me,
but in SL the various options for group text communication work better and seem pretty efficient to carry out Rule 26's intent.
It should be up to the RD.

Image

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:06 am
by Rita
Jane, Nomad: You know full well that the discussion here mainly focuses on the r-o-w rules. The way you turn away the conversation on particular aspects ("safety" and "communication") is ridiculous and not very honest of you. That said, there is no reason not to apply rule 26.
As in any game or simulation software, it is clear that there are peculiarities of the man-machine interface, but in no case they have repercussions on the basic rules , "when boats meet" rules and their limitations:

FAIR SAILING - ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES - DECISION TO RACE
PART 2 - WHEN BOATS MEET RIGHT OF WAY 10 11 12 13 GENERAL LIMITATIONS 14 15 16 17 AT MARKS AND OBSTRUCTIONS 18 19 20 OTHER RULES 21 22 23
PART 3 - CONDUCT OF A RACE 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36
and also: - 44 - ...

I think that the original approach of designing/writing your "RRSSL" was a mistake: it was enough to rely on RRS and by issuing SAILING INSTRUCTIONS taking into account the specificities of Second Life. This was made by all the sailing games or SW sailing simulations (VSK...), but yours.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless and a waste of time. No serious argument is accepted here.
Good luck

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:39 am
by Liv Leigh
Sorry to hear that the debate is not considered very fruitful by at least one person. I hope that the Fizz Cup will provide us with some additional knowledge on sailing with full ISAF RRS and what problems may arise then. I am at least planning to race my 1AM sunday Fizz slot under full RRS after the cup. We will have a way to test how it works then, on a weekly base.
Issues may arise and enable us to finetune things :)

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:36 am
by Orca Flotta
Rita wrote:Jane, Nomad: You know full well that the discussion here mainly focuses on the r-o-w rules.

Oh. I thought you're talking about FULL implementation of ISAF rules.

This was made by all the sailing games or SW sailing simulations

I hope some day even the last noob will notice SL isn't neither.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless and a waste of time. No serious argument is accepted here.

We've heard hardly any serious arguments yet, so there was nothing to accept. Come racing with us instead of trying to start a pointless crusade in some irrelevant forum.

But if you reallly want, I have here one of many stories that happened in SL races:

Upwinds beating, 2 boats on same course. Suddenly the windward boat (Joly "French Fury" John) falls off and hits leeward boat (Orca "Stupid Cripple" Flotta) despite her shouting UP UP UP! Reason for that: both boats were approaching one of those fashionable Out-of-sim-rocks but Joly's intention was to avoid the "obstruction" while Orca wanted to sail right through it. Those things are phantom, here today, gone tomorrow and not even visible in the map. So I usually ignore them. In Joly's view I was driving her into the rocks. And by doing so she also pushed Orca off her projected course and gained a good speed advantage of 2-3 boat lenghts in a few seconds. So how would a full ISAF judge decide? And what would an experienced SL judge decide in that same situation? Fortunately for Orca, she was RD in that race and Joly only avoided a DSQ because, well, because RD likes her. :wink:

Oh, that gets me to another point: Under full ISAF rules RDs can hardly ever race themselves. They must watch over the fleet. But I became RD mostly for the reason to start and sail some races in a timeslot convenient for me. So I could race. Like most healthy people I'm not too fond of the RD job but doing it so I myself can race. And because no one else will do it. You know fairly well that RDs are only few and between in SL, under full ISAF there would be even less. Not too sure about ISAF rules I'd need to find a judge on my side. Complicates stuff and blows up sailing races out of proportion. Takes the fun out of SLsailing and would be in my eyes much too uptight. I for one would definately cease my activities.

Noodles, Rita: Step up and start your full ISAF races. You're more than welcome in most clubs, since we're all short of RDs and overworked as it is.

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:19 am
by Nomad Zamani
Rita wrote:Jane, Nomad: You know full well that the discussion here mainly focuses on the r-o-w rules. The way you turn away the conversation on particular aspects ("safety" and "communication") is ridiculous and not very honest of you.

I know what I know far better than you know what I know - kindly do not presume to tell me that what I know is different from what I know that I know.

The argument has been for a FULL implementation of the ISAF rules. To determine whether that is feasible, it is neccessary to consider possible exceptions for any and all rules that may not work in SL. We can't have a starting point of "a full implementation, except a few that will be made clear later", or some unstated presumption that "full ISAF rules" actually means "full ISAF ROW rules".


That said, there is no reason not to apply rule 26.

So, was that ridiculous and dishonest, or a valid point?

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:18 am
by Nomad Zamani
Liv Leigh wrote:I would argue the opposite of Nomad here: life-saving equipment on boats in SL is very adequate for all persons aboard, namely non-existent. Since technically speaking, in SL there is no one aboard, there is no one to save either in the event of a crash. :D

I would say that, within the context of SL, it is valid to say that an avatar that is seated on a vehicle is equivalent to someone being on board. However, nobody is in danger of drowning in SL, even though we can go overboard. So, I would agree that "adequate" is the operative term, but on the basis that, if nobody is in danger, then "no life-saving equipment" is "adequate".

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:10 pm
by Jane Fossett
Nomad Zamani wrote:
Liv Leigh wrote:I would argue the opposite of Nomad here: life-saving equipment on boats in SL is very adequate for all persons aboard, namely non-existent. Since technically speaking, in SL there is no one aboard, there is no one to save either in the event of a crash. :D

I would say that, within the context of SL, it is valid to say that an avatar that is seated on a vehicle is equivalent to someone being on board. However, nobody is in danger of drowning in SL, even though we can go overboard. So, I would agree that "adequate" is the operative term, but on the basis that, if nobody is in danger, then "no life-saving equipment" is "adequate".

I think wearing life jackets has a point in SL; it's part of the 'teaching' mission of SLCG.
Although I admit I'd never complain about a sailor who didn't wear a PFD sailing in SL,
I think it's worth occasionally raising the issue with gentle humor here as a reminder.

If we talk about PFDs, sailing safety issues, floation devices, navigational aids and distress alerts in SL,
we might increase their use in RL... and that could save real lives.

Image

Mike Plant's Concordia Coyote snapped it's hi-tech keel and flipped while crossing the Atlantic.
I understand his EPIRB was not registered. No one could find him after the capsize.
His life was important...
Every sailor's life is important.

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:29 am
by noodleqt exonar
@Quirky: To me this is not about forcing ISAF rules on anyone. It is about realizing the huge amount of work already put into the ISAF rules, and it is about acknowledging these rules as the standard rules for yacht racing on any level above beginners. Yes, mouselook sailing raises the level of realism. I want that too. Shelly has it. So the Fizz should be able to as well. Technically speaking.

Naturally, we had c, b and a-sailors in the optimist - wayyy back. The c and b sailors were not bad people. They just need to focus on the basics of sailing, not the rules. As soon the the basic sailing is in place, - everybody out there started to learn the ISAF ruleset. It is like the drivers license and the race license.

Perhaps the people on here acquainted with ISAF rules are few - or at least outnumbered by new sailors. Maybe the RL sailors just left, - tired of endless and fruitless discussions. Does that legitimate that we - the community - end up using and teaching defunct rules such as RRSSL ?? I think not.

Whatever happens - there are groups that seem to be unable to meet... bumbercar sailors, arcade sailors and simulation sailors just have different perspectives. This inability to even talk about the matter will challenge the socalled community of sailing in SL. So this thread is for those of us seeking realism.

@Nomad: Is it not a problem, that even when we have a separate thread for this subject, some people feel they need to sabotage the discussion - not by arguing about the matter, - nono - they simply need to tell us the entire matter is invalid. Geeezzz... if these people cannot bring anything to the table, then stay away, please.

@Rita: I so agree. I think this discussion belongs within the socalled community of sailing in SL, and the subject should be the race rules. RRS cannot be discussed or changed. RRSSL can, but u said it... this community is not for sailors.

@Jane: Radio controlled sailing is just about as fantastic as hovering over the course in here. U see all the things u cannot see in RL, and it is great for learning about the effect of windshifts and such. Usually radiosailing is done by full ISAF ruleset and appendix E. I sail radio controlled boats on a weekly basis during winter, and I also RD for them. Believe me, it is all about racing rules as Rita also says. Once in a while we have a no rules race, and gues what... half the boats never make it to the finish, because of collisions and damage.

Please, all, the ISAF rules arent perfect, but they have been tested live gazillions of times more than their SL counterpart. The FULL ISAF does - ofcourse - not imply silly things such as life vests. Good joke :-) Usually there is no requirement for life vests, but - in bad weather - the RD can choose to hoist the Y-flag, thus requiring all to wear floatation. In everyday inshore racing no-one wears a life vest. Jane has a point though, - we could use SL as an aducation platform and save real lives. That would require us - we the people - to form and maintain an organisation of sorts; SLSAILING is defunct. Jane has - elsewhere - brilliantly explained why slsailing equals nothing, because slsailing in its nature cannot take a stand regarding any matter.

Back to vests. The key word in rule 1.2 is adequate. I will admit Nomad has a point, though. If we say full ISAF, and we really don't mean that, then what do we mean. Problem here is, that to a sailor it might seem pretty obvious, that we mean ROW rules. To a newbie it is not.

So we have some explaining to do. Or we could ask the sweet Nomad to rename this thread.

The rules are written with special sections for radio controlled racing, windsurfers and what not. Full ISAF does not imply using all the pages. It implies reading the book and using the pages that apply. Naturally, Orca, the weirdness of SL such as phantom objects are not in the rules, and so it is the duty of the RD to find a location that fits the rules. Much like RL. The course must need certain standards. Likewise in soccer and tennis.

I do not get why we are being told to put up or shut up. This is not a popularity contest. It is a matter of principle. Race rules exist. Made by brilliant sailors, tested in millions of races. We should have the respect and humility to acknowledge that, and we should not think ourselves to be Gods capable of creating better rules for our little corner of the world.

@Jane: Rule 26 can be overruled by the NOR in RL, but there rarely isnt any reason to, because all can see the good in sharing rules across the world. Some classes, however, change the starting to be like the 10 minute warning as we all used in the good old days. Radio controlled races use - typically - a two minute countdown. At least around here. Read rule 25 and 86 before quoting rule 26. It does not stand alone.

I am looking very much forward to the Fizz Cup experiences. Kudos to Liv for making it happen. I am also looking forward to Slanty and Orca taking their debate about emptyness elsewhere.

Phew...
Noodle


PS: Rita... lets have a coffee.

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:48 pm
by Orca Flotta
noodleqt exonar wrote:I am also looking forward to Slanty and Orca taking their debate about emptyness elsewhere.


Huh? I don't even know what you're talking about but I'm pretty sure it's again one of your usual badly hidden insults. Well, I'm loooking forward to your first performance as RD. I will say this now for the last time: step up or shut up! Bring something to the plate and talk after the fact not before it. But if you really feel it so necessary to post up a storm here, why don't you learn to read and comprehend posts by other ppl and acknowledge their obviously much greater wisdom and experience. So far you haven't answered a single post by anyone else in a civil matter or taken into account a single one of the many counter arguments in a honest way. Your behaviour reeks of trollery.

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:02 pm
by Nomad Zamani
noodleqt exonar wrote:@Quirky: To me this is not about forcing ISAF rules on anyone. It is about realizing the huge amount of work already put into the ISAF rules, and it is about acknowledging these rules as the standard rules for yacht racing on any level above beginners. Yes, mouselook sailing raises the level of realism. I want that too. Shelly has it. So the Fizz should be able to as well. Technically speaking.

Unless they've been updated since I last sailed them, neither are suitable for mouselook sailing. You can look around and trim the sails while sailing, but the steering stops working. Even if the Shelly has been fixed, the Fizz modes where you have to hike manually preclude it.


Whatever happens - there are groups that seem to be unable to meet... bumbercar sailors, arcade sailors and simulation sailors just have different perspectives. This inability to even talk about the matter will challenge the socalled community of sailing in SL. So this thread is for those of us seeking realism.
...
@Rita: I so agree. I think this discussion belongs within the socalled community of sailing in SL, and the subject should be the race rules. RRS cannot be discussed or changed. RRSSL can, but u said it... this community is not for sailors.

The community is diverse - there is no groupthink, but that doesn't make it any less of a community. It is not a 'so-called' community, it really is a community. The term 'sailors' in the SL sailing scene largely means those who sail in SL, whether or not they sail in RL. If what you mean is that this community isn't for RL sailors who race (ie, not all RL sailors), then it might be worth being more specific with your terminology.

Second Agendae

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:02 pm
by Jane Fossett
What I find dismaying is the mistrust and negative attitude expressed over race rule conventions.
Like many other people here I compete in sailing regattas and other club sports (mostly tennis) when the season permits.
In those events I argue loudly over rules issues and judgments...
but like everyone else, I can't argue too long before I start laughing. I like having Rules and playing against friends.
I also like having good judges, and I absolutely love having great, well-coordinated events.
Is it perfect? NO.
Should I be satisfied? NO.
Should I sit down and grin,
happy to be part of a wondrous community?
YES.

Let's continue to argue Rules...
No sailor I know would ever sidestep a Rules argument :-)
But please let's do it like Real Life;
Let's do it with respect and in a manner that builds consensus.
Let's do it in a way that strengthens our core friendships here.

I Hope we are all moving in that direction. :-)

Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:42 am
by noodleqt exonar
@Orca: I did not insult u. I have precisely addressed most arguments in a civil way.

@Nomad: The Shelly seems to work for me, and it is really good fun to sail. To keep this post in line with the subject: The Shelly seems to be a good boat for ISAF racing. I can look around the course, while I steer and trim, and I can hear if the trimming isnt good and take action. Also, while in mouse mode, I can see the vane and the ticklers, and it gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling ;-)

Yes you are right; I should be more specific. Here is my rephrase: There seems to be little room for SL sailors with RL racing experience in here. The tradition of helping, sharing and caring, that I know from the RL sailing community seems to be absent in SL. Others before me have experienced this. I would like to talk about the reasons for this, but not in this thread, and probably not within the framework of slsailing.

@Jane: I am with you all the way. Lets discuss the rules so we can have a shared understanding. It should really be unneccessary to discuss what rules to use. Perhaps the nature of SL or slsailing itself is the problem. But thats another thread.

Cheers,
Noodle