Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

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Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Nomad Zamani » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:42 pm

Using my amazing and mysterious powers of clairvoyance, I have a feeling that there may be some sailors in SL that are interested in racing using full ISAF rules.

What are your thoughts and experiences?

Do you want to race with ISAF rules in SL? Do you already do so?

Do you run ISAF races, or teach ISAF rules?
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Naeve Rossini » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:03 am

I, for one, welcome our new ISAF overlords. :)
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Liv Leigh » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:35 am

I have recently become a bit discontent with some of the limitations in the RSSSL base set of rules. For instance the absence of rule 17 causes potential issues. (though I must say I have not run into the type of situations where rule 11 is used in an offensive way as a result of it's absence.) Other rules that are useful seem to be absent.

While I am not sure about the necessity for the use of 720 degree penalty turns, I welcome the use of the full RRS as defined in the ISAF handbook to SL. When looking at recent race developments in the Flying Fizz scene, I think at least those racers are ready for it. Not everyone may know the rulebook very well, but it's acceptance as a base of racing tactics in second life sailing is there.

Taku Raymaker has been using the more detailed versions of rule 18 (the RRSSL version is a bit shorter) for at least 6 months now, later followed by inclusion of rule 17 in his Fizz regatta ruleset. The Japanese racing fleet now happily accepts this extra set of rules, making their regular thursday races much more tactical than any race series I have seen in SL so far. A few months ago Jeremia Spotter, Yuu Nakamichi and Bea Woodget have started to run races under the full Racing Rules of Sailing. This has been done for SLSA graded races in 2 classes so far: Flying Fizz and Shelly Fizz. The added complexity for the racers seems to be very manageable.

We may all have to learn a little if we 'go full ISAF' but I think we are up to the challenge.
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby noodleqt exonar » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:06 am

Clairvoyancy, hehe! You sure are a funny guy, Nomad ;-)

I so wanna go full ISAF. Surprise, huh? Let me, briefly state why it is so...

1) ISAF rules are made by experienced sailors for sailors. They know what they are doing.
2) The purpose of ISAF rules are to make racing easier, more fun and fair.
3) It is rather messy for RDs and contestants to race with several different rulesets.
4) The RRSSL ruleset has left out rules, effectively reversing ROW in many often seen situations.

I discuss the details of 4) in more depth on my blog.

Some might argue that the ISAF rules are too many, and I agree they can seem difficult to grasp in one bite. I grew up with those rules, and I still find them difficult. The reality is, however, that the ISAF rules have been simplified version by version since... as long as I can remember. ISAF is most definately working hard to make the racing rules better, - as in easier to understand and to sail by.

Some might argue that ISAF rules are not suited to handle the reality of the SL imperfections. I see the point. SL is far from perfect. I just dont see the point in adding even ore imperfections to the equation by using what - to me - appears to be defunct rules. I discuss that in more detail on my blog as well.

Now, there are those who dislike rules... Fine by me. Go play Tugby, Tag or race bumperboats. Have a balloon race. Try racing backwards. I did that as well. It is fun, and that's what it is all about. Some of us just wanna have fun playing with ISAF rules, because they are built and optimized for yacht racing by brilliant sailors over many years.

There are those who dislike the idea of a community. Fine by me. ISAF is not about us all being brothers and sisters in one big club, choosing a commodore and being all slaves to a board of tyrans. ISAF is all about accepting, respecting and understanding the rules of a well designed game, making it more fun for everybody. That game is called the ISAF yacht racing game. Again, - built by sailors for sailors.

Cheers,
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby quirky torok » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:42 am

I am still not convinced as to the arguments for the full ISAF ruleset. for the following reasons

a) There ARE limitations to SL sailing, no point in arguing otherwise.. for example when i am RL sailing my head has the ability to turn and look for other boats, my position, my course. These are natural and intuitive behaviours that we can all relate to. This is very difficult to do in SL, unless you go into mouse look.
b) I can multi task in RL (yes i know I'm male and that should be impossible) I can not only observe all the points raised in a) but i can also steer my boat and pull my sheets in.. I need to be in mouse look to do this. It's not intuitive enough behaviour yet. Indeed there are some boats that this is impossible (the fizz)
c) The vast majority of sailors that come to SL racing without being fortunate enough to have experienced RL sailing. unless we want to be an exclusive slowly dying activity we have to relate and engage these people.
d) Race directing for a full set of rules is not going to be easy for large fleets. At best the RD will have a lot of work to do just organising the event. His/her view will be reduced to a max view distance of 500m and again the ability to both flay and observe the entire fleet is again limited to the technology we use. We cant give the very best quality judging under these situations. combined with this when i am sitting at the computer there are other distractions that will take my 'eye off the ball'


Yes there is a place for ISAF rules, but for a tiny minority. I have yet to see a race fully under these rule sets. If we do get them i would suggest that there are more than one Race Director/Umpire to observe these races. That brings me to another problem.. we don't have the trained umpires in SL I hope that we do get more and i can tell Noodle will make a wonderful and very much welcomed Race Director.

For my part I will keep the rules simple, so that my races are well attended and people know exactly where they stand. Not bumper cars, but the basic rules of the road and beginner friendly, there is nothing more off putting to a new racer than being entangled in a long drawn out protest. Nor is there any encouragement to a newish sailor than being Disqualified for a rule i didn't know even existed. We can do all the training in the world on the rules, you cant make people go, or understand.

I did have the brainwave a few year ago about having a series of races, one for newbies, one for experienced and one for veterans. It would work with a ticket (notecard or register) you go higher in the race system either with more training or the more races you partake in.

OK. that's my two penneth worth.. go argue :)
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Rita » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:21 am

A new thread to discuss ISAF rules??? What need for that? Rules are rules, Racing Rules of Sailing are called "RRS" and that's it. Provide a link to ISAF site and then you may close this thread. To use them or not is your own choice (gaming vs. "sailing"), but there is no need to discuss them. RRS are not questionnable, while your RRSSL are.
One thread is enough, and must be about your RRSSL. Most of the arguments I can read against RRS also apply to your RRSSL (lag, camera, "multitasking"...) and make no-sense. But with a limited subset of rules, you are counter productive, learning and using wrong rules, reversing ROW in lot of cases, and at the end not promoting SAILING.
To start this new thread in this forum is like to ask a monkey if it prefers bananas or a T-Bone steack. The active "majority" here against RRS are in fact a tiny minority, the others left this forum long ago because of war flames and language issues (european and asian). Browsing this forum, you may also find some posts tinged with racism, xenophobia, and they are not moderated. But let dare to promote RRS and then you get banned. What a pity.
My experience in sailing: regular racer. In what you call "SL sailing": one race (or 2) and I had enough. I also listen once to a funny "protest hearing", with both sailors and RD having no clue of what they were talking about. I also watched races with "dropping zones" after crashes. That's too funny. Mario Kart sailing.
You better change the tagline for this forum. You are definitively not a forum for SAILORS in Second Life.
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Slanty Uriza » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:11 pm

noodleqt exonar wrote:The reality is, however, that the ISAF rules have been simplified version by version since...


Well, lets cut things short, lets jump 10 years or so ahead, ISAF rules have simplyfied themselves off the grid. Everybody happy. Nomad, you can close this thread :D :D
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Nomad Zamani » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:16 pm

Slanty Uriza wrote:
noodleqt exonar wrote:The reality is, however, that the ISAF rules have been simplified version by version since...


Well, lets cut things short, lets jump 10 years or so ahead, ISAF rules have simplyfied themselves off the grid. Everybody happy. Nomad, you can close this thread :D :D

Is this called Slanty's Grand Convergence Theory?
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Jane Fossett » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:52 pm

We keep returning to this issue, and I think that's ok.
If the long term 'goal' of SL Sailing is to emulate the RL sport,
we need to repeatedly re-address how well SL Sailing's progress parallels RL.
That's just sort of a 'quality-check.' There's no argument.

In that context, I guess I agree with many points made by Nomad, Liv, Slant, Quirk and Noodz recently,
(and of course prior comments by M1sha, Armchair, MTW, Tim, Myrrh, Pix and SO MANY others over the past 5 years).

In that context, I think:
1. The ISAF Race Rules are a good Benchmark, a 'Gold Standard.'
However the ISAF Rules are not Divine Law in SL, or anywhere else.
Many RL Sailing Clubs routinely sail under limited or adjusted Rulesets.

2. SL is not RL, and there are both positive and negative aspects to that difference.
It's appropriate to make cautious Rule adjustments in RL or SL depending on the circumstances.
After all, one Ruleset does NOT fit all conditions; ask ISAF!

3. Although I agree strongly with Liv, Noodz, and many others that we should work to build a valid sailing emulation online consistent with the RL Rules,
I frankly think trying to run races 100% by RL ISAF Rules is just silly.
Many of the Rule details are contingent on RL issues and constraints;
they often do not apply to SL, and actually would cripple any effort to make a faithful online race emulation here.
No surprise, thoughtful adjustments and modifications are essential for any virtual sailing medium.

4. I think it's appropriate to discuss those issues here, and
jointly work out modifications that fit Digital Sailing and Racing needs based on the IASF Rules.
We don't need to agree, and RD's should experiment; however,
I think its helpful to share ideas and experience so we all benefit.

5. So I don't leave the wrong impression... PLEASE: I'm not arguing that SL sailing is in any way a 'poor cartoon copy' of RL Sailing.
Actually, there are many features of digital sailing that make it more understandable,
more fair, more accessible,
and even sometimes just as much fun as the "Real Thing."
Today I had a chance today to spend 15min watching Waypoint friends race from my desktop;
it was wonderful and I learned a great deal...
I could never do that in RL.
SL Sailing has real strengths we can all use.

My Point is just this:
I think we all appreciate and understand the basic Rules of Sailing and Racing.
I think all Race or Cruise Directors try to give their fleet a valuable, fun, and 'real' experience.
I think they get to decide what they want, and what Ruleset to use.
As time goes on, hopefully we all grow together.

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Last edited by Jane Fossett on Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Jane Fossett » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:44 pm

Here's a silly picture I composed two years ago after the the Trudeau RC boats were announced.

It shows a few 'tough as deck nails' RL sailors
who were standing out in the rain for a whole weekend,
racing radio-controlled sailboats.

The regatta was hosted by a RL, legendary yacht club
that's won more sailing awards than anyone could ever display.
(ask Zowee Sorbet.)

So why are these RL skippers standing out in the rain for two days playing with bathtub toys?
Hmmmm... Maybe they have marital problems, you think?

Well I think differently...
Maybe this sailing model gives them a chance
to test-out race issues
and evaluate strategies
in a low-risk,well-defined,
but realistic context.

They are working on a meaningful sail emulation.
Maybe someday they can come-in from that rain...
and sail the same ideas in SL.

(But please: Don't ever, ever say the modified ruleset they use is 'not sailing.")

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The "Other" J-Class

Postby Jane Fossett » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:57 pm

There are many levels to emulations. :-)

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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby M1sha Dallin » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:27 pm

If anyone believes that the full ISAF ruleset will avoid anomalous RoW issues then please check:

http://www.ukhalsey.com/blog/
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Rita » Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:13 am

1.
Jane Fossett wrote:Many RL Sailing Clubs routinely sail under limited or adjusted Rulesets.

Yes, but to take into considerations local parameters, and NOT , in any case, to change ROW.

2.
Jane Fossett wrote:After all, one Ruleset does NOT fit all conditions; ask ISAF!

It fits 95% more conditions than the subset of rules you are using now.

3.
Jane Fossett wrote:Many of the Rule details are contingent on RL issues and constraints;
they often do not apply to SL, and actually would cripple any effort to make a faithful online race emulation here.

This argument is wrong, often used, but I am still waiting to read about a valid example.

(Radio Controlled)
Jane Fossett wrote:They are working on a meaningful sail emulation.... and sail the same ideas in SL.(But please: Don't ever, ever say the modified ruleset they use is 'not sailing.")]

You are wrong again: The "modified" ruleset they use is called ISAF RRS... Annex E...in which slight changes have been made only for Race Conduct and Protest. No change at all in right-of-way rules and their limitations. Same as RRS.

M1sha Dallin wrote:If anyone believes that the full ISAF ruleset will avoid anomalous RoW issues then please check: http://www.ukhalsey.com/blog/

What a silly argument! You found a particular case, an exception, congrats !
For 1 case like this one, I may give you hundreds with RRSSL. RRS will avoid 99% of RoW issues (and wrong decision) you have with RRSSL.
I think better to avoid 99% of issues (RRS), while you prefer to create more issues (RRSSL).
Btw, fyi, most of the cases as described on Ukhasley have been discussed and answered by international umpires.
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby quirky torok » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:55 am

OK its Saturday morning I have got a warm cup of coffee as the rain is gently spattering on the window.. I am warm and snug sitting in my leather chair reading the posts and arguments For the full use of the ISAF rule set... I have just one thing more to say..

If the ISAF rule set is so great in SL why haven't I seen a single race organised and run by those being so forceful about their use??

Rita, Noodle.. come on put up or shut up... I have yet to see anyone use these rules in a race.. Its down to you two now to organise events.. Existing Race Directors would love to have some help organising racing.. So instead of sitting on .org, try going into Second Life and organise a race or two.. Its not that difficult. If you need help writing notices or help with the line please contact me.

I do it every week and even a numpty like me can do it.. So please less of the indignant RL sailor throwing their egos round, do something useful for the whole community and organise a race, nothing big.. just a race anything, either that or I for one stop taking you seriously.
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Nomad Zamani » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:22 am

How is/can the following rule be implemented in SL?

---------------------------
1.2 Life-Saving Equipment and Personal Flotation Devices

A boat shall carry adequate life-saving equipment for all persons on board, including one item ready for immediate use, unless her class rules make some other provision. ...
---------------------------

So far as I'm aware, there are no boats in SL that have a deployable flotation device or similar. There are some that have a life ring, but this is a fixed prim that is only for show. There may be one or two class associations, but I don't know if any have class rules, or whether there is a class rule negating the need for immediately-deployable life-saving equipment. If full ISAF rules are to be implemented to the letter, then, picky as it may seem, all, or nearly all, boats should be DSQ as soon as they start to race.
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