Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Discuss racing matters here. Note that race results and past rules cases have their own sections.

Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:30 am

I wrote about ISAF rules in a forum named SL sailing. The forum is backed by a sailing website, that - on the frontpage - has direct links to ISAF and several RL events using ISAF rules. It seems very few people want to discuss the implications of leaving out parts of the ISAF rules, such as rule 12, 17 and 31. From my perspective, - something is very strange here. I begin to feel like not caring anymore. Hopefully it will pass...
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Liv Leigh » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:35 am

noodleqt exonar wrote:It seems very few people want to discuss the implications of leaving out parts of the ISAF rules, such as rule 12, 17 and 31. From my perspective, - something is very strange here. I begin to feel like not caring anymore. Hopefully it will pass...

Actually there are plenty people around who do care about implementing the full ISAF ruleset, who do think it is worthy to have a debate on this. If you want, I can introduce you to a few of them, since it seems most of the people who dominate this forum are not amongst them.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Nomad Zamani » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:36 am

The forum isn't backed by anything other than an extremely handsome, yet modest, administrator who thinks nothing of putting countless hours and huge piles of cash into keeping it going. For all that, the forum is but one cog in the vast machine that is sailing in SL.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Liv Leigh » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:38 am

Nomad Zamani wrote:The forum isn't backed by anything other than an extremely handsome, yet modest, administrator who thinks nothing of putting countless hours and huge piles of cash into keeping it going. For all that, the forum is but one cog in the vast machine that is sailing in SL.

Yes,.. and maybe if noodle is not happy with the debate in here.. she can go have the debate in-world, where I am sure we can find some people who are interested in the subject.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Nomad Zamani » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:09 am

Would the outcome of such a debate amount to anything more than those who support ISAF rules agreeing to use them? If not, and if those who don't support them continue to use whatever subset they prefer, then there is nothing to debate.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Slanty Uriza » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:26 am

noodleqt exonar wrote:I begin to feel like not caring anymore. Hopefully it will pass...

I hope not
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Orca Flotta » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:01 am

Nomad Zamani wrote:The forum isn't backed by anything other than an extremely handsome, yet modest ...

Oh you forgot to mention very talented, wise, clued up, enormously generous ... :mrgreen:
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby M1sha Dallin » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:17 am

noodleqt wrote:It seems very few people want to discuss the implications of leaving out parts of the ISAF rules, such as rule 12, 17 and 31.

Not really - we've been here before. See also: http://slsailing.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1018&sid=77ba44376fff0b20b6dc27849cad2cc0 and a few other threads.

There are people who want to race the full ruleset and do so; others who want to race the full ruleset but don't believe the SL simulation is up to the job; and others who want to race a subset of the rules (including an empty subset). SL should be big enough for all - we've had that discussion as well :|
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Nomad Zamani » Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:41 pm

noodleqt exonar wrote:Some radio controlled classes allow the touching of marks. There are two reasons for this. We cannot move the mark, because the boat is much lighter than the mark. We cannot see the details, as often times we are a fifty meters or more from the situation itself. What we can see, it if someone does not round the mark correctly.

On SL it is like radio controlled racing with regards to rule 31. We cannot move the marks, and we cannot really see, if he or did he not touch the mark. However, the marks can tell us that, provided collision-detect works on SL. I hear it has problems with those designer shapes, ehh... sculpted boats I think it is called.

I've always raced on the assumption that rule 31 is in effect - it doesn't suit my ex-RL sailor sensibilities to hit marks. Aside from that, hitting a mark can slow your boat significantly. I also sail in mouselook, which means my on-screen viewpoint is that of the sailor in the boat - I can look over at the gunwhale and see how close it is to the mark. Mouselook also means I can look at another boat and work out if our converging courses are likely to result in a collision, look all around to see what the competition are doing, look over my shoulder to get an idea of the bearing to the next mark and decide whether it's time to tack. I find this a far more immersive experience than the weird out-of-body thing that most sailors use. I happen to think that hovering in the air a few metres behind the boat is, well, unrealistic. Not unrealistic in terms of the SL physics model or the necessary constraints that builders encounter, but unrealsitic as an on-screen representation of what it's like to be in a boat and racing it.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Naeve Rossini » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:15 pm

FTR: I am for racing with full ISAF.

FTR: I am also for racing with RRSSL. There's a time and a place for both.

And now I'm tempted to race with no rules at all. Start, round the buoy, get back to the line. Full contact, bump each other off the course racing.

I guess even that could be considered a race with rules...
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Jane Fossett » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:30 pm

I agree with M1.
The past, open discussions on different topics in this Forum are a pretty valuable resource.
The threads seem a good starting point for people who'd like to advocate for SLRRS changes or new approaches.
(Of course the SLRRS are always just a framework; the Race Rules are up to the regatta organizers.)
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:50 am

Dare I post again in this forum??

Hi M1sha and Jane...
Thanx for responding, and excuse me for being new on the sailing scene of SL.

Let me be clear: I really don't care about the power games and politics. I care about the community, - even though community seems a far to strong word these days. Having a common understanding of rules and how use them is - to me - a fundamental part of facilitating a racing community. From what I have seen till now, this - the common understanding of racing rules and how to apply them - is not nearly in place in SL.

Now, I can understand all you oldies are being tired of having discussions on rules, when you have had them many times before; Thanx for telling me to read the old threads. I tried. It is a massive load of political crap, personal vendettas and frustrated little boys spread over four years of posts. I do not think it is fair or realistic to expect newbies to read through that to get a feeling of the current status of the sailing scene in SL.

Entering the scene of sailing in SL is not excactly easy. There seems to be no widely reckognized authority of rules, the yacht racing rules mentioned on slsailing are a subset of the real life rules. The subset has left out key rules, such as 12, 15, 17 and 31, - whereby it promotes a bumper-boat style of sailing. Drama and aggressivity is pushed forward by these rules. Just read rule 15 :-) Furthermore, this subset seem to be applied more or less in random by different race directors. The yacht clubs seem to be pursuing their own happiness - effectively not caring what they do in other clubs. It really looks like chaos and anarchy.

I find it would benefit us all, if someone old and wise tried to sum it all up. Where are we, where are we going, and what are the rules; Perhaps thats not possible, and the reality is... there is no "we".

There! My humble opinion. You might all disagree, and I fear I will get nothing but nasty and mocky responses to this. Nevertheless I actually believe this discussion belongs - not here - but on the frontpage of SLSAILING and every other sailing page that deals with sailing in SL.

Like someone said before... there is room for all kinds of sailors. I agree. I am not here to make everyone sail by real rules. My intention is to find other like-minded people, and perhaps slsailing is not the right place to look; I dunno. Please do not hate me for trying to find out, ok...
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Orca Flotta » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:25 am

Hello again noodles,
first let me say nobody hates you here. And nobody hates you for trying to set a standard ruleset for SL sailing. I think your cause is noble and you mean well, I always thought so. Maybe it's the way you try to push your ideas through, by putting others down, the way how you try to communicate your ideas that makes many ppl opposing them. Or just the impossibility.

Second let's be clear on one thing: there is indeed a SLsailing community, if we want it or not. Commmunity is what happens if ppl are following the same interest - together, at the same time. And of course in the forum discussions happens a lot of politics and personal agendas. That what makes a community like ours worthwile. Believe it or not, in SL there are ppl sailing from all over the world. We all see SL different in our approach to it. For some it's a dreamworld where they can just let it all hang out and be silly or terrible, some are trying to build a utopia; some are pretty single minded and in SL for a single reason only (racing boats or shooting zombies or finding RL love and have primbabies) but most are using SL as a kinda multitool - and many have no idea or philosophy about SL in any way. Totally different political belief systems and ideas and strangeness does occur. I for one think those moments when everybody seems to fight anybody and their little sister, that is when the SL sailing community is at its best! You say it's crap, ask the people wwho wrote those posts if they regard them as crap as well.

Third it's called SL sailng community NOT SL racing comunity. Just because racing plays a considerably greater rule in SL than in RL sailing doesn't make us all just racers. Most boat owners in SL have never heard of something like a SL sailing community and of our yacht clubs, or that there are races and rules and whatnots. They just rezz their boats and go sailing. YAY! Good for them.

Fourth RDs in SL are mostly free and independent, they don't necessarily represent a single club but have their races where they find the best circumstances and support. Most of us are members of multiple yacht clubs anyway, so loyalty to any specific YC and other petty regional patriotic stuff doesn't apply in this community. That's a good thing or is it?

All I can assure you of is this: If certain racing rules have been left out of the current ruleset it is because they are impossible to imply into the context of SL. As was already discussed the other day, some technicalities and LL stupidities are not allowing for SL to be used as a proper sailing/racing simulation, so we have to either live with the limitations or leave SL for greener pastures. But fighting windmillls can get tiresome after a while.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Liv Leigh » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:54 am

Recently I have become a bit discontent with the current RRSSL ruleset I have been using in the Fizz and Shelly races I am running sundays and mondays. Especially since many of the Japanese sailors are getting better and better trained in using the rulebook and have started to happily protest one another, throwing remarks at me like 'rule19.2!', after which I have to conclude sometimes such a rule is not even in the subset I use.

I think after the Fizz Cup I will start to use the full ISAF RRS for my regular events as well. It seems many sailors are indeed ready for this. The only doubt I have is the use of 720 degree penalties, which are downright disorienting in SL in my opninion. But a simple alteration to 360's for all regular penalties will solve this for me.

About 'community': I don't think it is useful to talk on this subject within the scope of this thread.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Nomad Zamani » Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:05 am

Nor is this a thread in which to lobby for full ISAF rules - a look at the title and the opening posts should make its purpose clear.
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