Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Naeve Rossini » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:30 am

Let me start by saying that I am an advocate for more full ISAF rules racing in SL, however, they still require modification to deal with environmental issues that occur specifically to SL.

At the same time, I also recognise that the majority of racers in SL are not interested in such an advanced level of racing. For those that are, great. Let's have some ISAF racing. For the remainder, there's nothing wrong with RRSSL. And, as noodle has mentioned, there's a flip side to that for the RL racers that are more familiar with the full ISAF rules.

RL racers may be well advised that attending a RRSSL race is a lot like playing touch (American rules) football or casual game of pool rather than full contact (American rules) football or competitive pool.

There's a place for both rulesets (and the even more simplified Slanty Ruleset). Announce the ruleset to be used in a race and the racers will either adhere to the rules or be overruled.

Yes, that means that using Rule 17 in a RRSSL race won't help you.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Slanty Uriza » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:48 am

This is the first time I read this topic. I scooped my way through all the mumbo jumbo until I bounced into Noodleqt Exonar's rant about what RL sailors want. She sounds a lot like another pedantic dutch person (no offence) that I know. You sure you're not an alt Noodle, or are you really the new kid on the block that knows it all?
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Orca Flotta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:38 am

noodleqt exonar wrote:@Orca: We cannot share knowledge in a mutually beneficial way like this; The movie clips elsewhere in this thread is a good example of the typical protest; There are always four perceptions of any situation. Boat A, boat b, the Jurys and then there is the truth. Hopefully the latter two are similar. It is all about perception. Real life is too.

Sorry, wrong. It's not only perception but about perceptive truth. As Nomad made clear and as I obviously failed in making clear there can be more than only one truth in SL. And if you think I'm here to share knowledge, wrong again. I know what I want to know. It's not much but mostly true. And I rely on that truth and try to tell people if they have a wrong perception of the basic truth of how things are run in SL.

I asked around about ISAF; I learned that RDs in SL can be clueless about ISAF rules. A RD told me that herself. Got it on tape. So there is a difference.

A difference to what? Some people have a lot of clue, some don't. The RD telling you she doesn't have much of a clue about the ISAF rules could've been me btw. That's a fact. But there is also the fact that it doesn't matter much.

Thats a fact. I deal with facts.

Congrats

I do not see any logic in your postings...

Too bad. I try to write things as clear as possible with my very limited english skills. If you still fail to see any logic in my postings then I'm sorry ... but I can't change it.

I see you are good at playing with words, dodging the substance of my statements; I see politics, not knowledge. Lets talk sailing like sailors do.

I see you are much better in playing with words. And I see you are very aggressive, throwing wrong accusations at me. OK, let me talk like a sailor (whatever that means): I said my opinion, now I'm done. Get it or don't get it. Brush it off as politics or think I don't have the necessary knowledge to post about SL. I don't care, I'm not responsible for your education or the matter of your mind. I'm done and outtie.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:42 pm

Thx Don, - thanx for writing again, and thanx for being so direct :-)
To my surprise, I agree with you on all your points, and I highly respect the fact, that you've tried. You are probably right about counting on one hand. I acknowledge your point about either simplifying the rules or teaching them in a much better way, - or participation in races will be hurt. Also, I am fully aware that it is not easy to do, what I wanna do. Taking the easy road just was never my game. I think we are in fact on the same page here, and I'd really like to share two beers with you. Hope you feel the same way about me.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:11 pm

Nomad, you have a point. I should not appeal to authority. However, I will not start a RL namedropping game in here. Please give me a chance to make sense instead of just concentrating on putting me down.

I will tell you this: My entire life has been sailing. My family and all my friends are RL sailors. Good ones; Several very good ones. Though the very good ones aren't really better than the rest. They just spent more time at sea. How many? Hmm... probably I discussed SL with thirty RL sailors. More to come. Like i said, we can talk sailing, and you will see, that I am made of substance, not hot air.

I don't mean to ignore that there can be more than one truth in SL. I merely state, that this resembles the RL world very much. The crews of A and B can be less than 5 meters apart, and still they see the situation entirely different. Therefore I say, who cares about lag. It really does not change the game.

What I do mean to ignore is the imperfection of SL. I acknowledge that SL technology is - ehm - problematic. Using a crippled ISAF ruleset is adding more problems to an already problematic setup. We might disagree here; We don't need to agree, but I do think I have a valid point.

Thanx for the technical details; I agree it seems problematic, and I very much agree that it is the entire sailing scene thats appealing on SL... the clubs, the builders, the diversity.. much like the real world.

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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:22 pm

Hi Slanty and all...

For the record: I am a danish girl, 34 years old, live north of Copenhagen, Denmark. I am not an alt, and I most certainly am not dutch. Lucky me; Dutch is a language that is completely impossible to understand. Did you even bother to read my profile?

Regarding the dutch person, I have no idea who you are referring to. Please tell me; I'd like to know my SL twin. Perhaps me and her could meet and discuss matters, so that you guys wouldnt have to listen to all our crap.

Ohh, and I definately dunno sh*t about SL technology. I just see a huge potential in SL, as I have many years of RL sailing experience. I try to share that. Never ever been anywhere else where sharing is punished like it is here.

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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:59 pm

@Orca: Yes, it was you. You told me, you as an RD are clueless on racing rules. Now you have added, you don't give a sh*t, you don't wanna share and you don't wanna learn; Your position is clear. No need to take this any further. How does the saying go... Oh yeah, - opposites attract ;-)

Ciao Bella,
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Nomad Zamani » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:09 pm

noodleqt exonar wrote:Nomad, you have a point. I should not appeal to authority. However, I will not start a RL namedropping game in here. Please give me a chance to make sense instead of just concentrating on putting me down.

It wasn't a case of putting you down, but of calling you on making a generalised statement that isn't actually true in a general sense. Several of the people posting in this thread, that are saying the full ISAF ruleset isn't practical in SL, are, or have been, RL sailors. So, to say that real sailors want the full ISAF ruleset doesn't ring true when the some of the present audience are themselves real sailors who say otherwise.


I don't mean to ignore that there can be more than one truth in SL. I merely state, that this resembles the RL world very much. The crews of A and B can be less than 5 meters apart, and still they see the situation entirely different. Therefore I say, who cares about lag. It really does not change the game.

It does. SL is not a serious sailing simulation. It's a shared, multi-faceted metaverse that happens to have a user-created sailboat racing game as part of it. Most of the people who indulge in this are out for some fun. One of the most difficult jobs an RD has is adjudicating in a situation where the two sides of a protest were provided with different 'facts' on their screens. When you have committed no foul, but been protested because someone else 'hallucinated' that you did, and the judgement goes against you, the fun kinda saps away. Same thing if your race gets screwed up because you took evasive action to avoid a collision with someone that was fouling you, but they 'hallucinated' that they were nowhere near, and your protest gets rejected. In such situations, the judgement will always be unfair for one of the parties involved, and the party who loses out in the protest will have had their fun shot down. The more completely the RD tries to apply the ISAF rules, the harder it becomes to maintain fair judgements in these 'dual reality' incidents. In what amounts to an unresolvable situation, there is a danger of the RD coming across as a rules lawyer who has lost sight of why people turned up to race in the first place.


What I do mean to ignore is the imperfection of SL. I acknowledge that SL technology is - ehm - problematic. Using a crippled ISAF ruleset is adding more problems to an already problematic setup. We might disagree here; We don't need to agree, but I do think I have a valid point.

The technical imperfections cannot be ignored - they are present every time we sail. I have never experienced a race start that did not have some amount of perceptible lag, and most starts have significant lag. How can someone be validly protested when their boat simply refuses to respond to steering inputs because the SL spacetime continuum decided to warp around just their boat and not the other boat? They can't - shit happens, and the SL sailing gods sometimes don't smile on you. You just have to get on with it and do your best to sail out of it.


Regarding arguing in favour of a full ruleset, nobody is going to take that on board unless it's what they're into. SL is anarchy - people do what they want. If you want full ISAF rules, you turn up for races that use them. If you want RRS-SL, you attend those races. If you want use-your-common-sense with a bit of paint scraping, then those are the races that you go to. If you don't see races of the type that you prefer, then the oft-repeated refrain is "run them yourself!". There is no SL equivalent of ISAF, there is no official body, and there are no racing rules other than those that are established by a particular RD for a particular race. Thus, there is nothing to lobby for. It's a case of picking, or creating, the thing that you want.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Orca Flotta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:06 pm

noodleqt exonar wrote:@Orca: Yes, it was you. You told me, you as an RD are clueless on racing rules. Now you have added, you don't give a sh*t, you don't wanna share and you don't wanna learn; Your position is clear. No need to take this any further. How does the saying go... Oh yeah, - opposites attract ;-)

Ciao Bella,
Noodle


Oh my :/
I really promised to myself to stay out of this fruitless attempt to talk some sense into you, but you just can't let it rest, do you? What have I done other than disagreeing with you that makes you trying so aggressively to turn my every word around and interprete me totally wrong? :shock: Now I'm angry! :evil:

I never said I'm clueless about racing rules, only that I don't have MUCH of a clue. Still enough clue to call basic situations and judging them fairly. And honestly, when does it ever happen that it comes to protest hearings? I'm SLailing since 3 years now and only witnessed 3 or 4 protest hearings. And most of them happened during huge cup events. Noodles, there is only a small handful sailors in RL and SL as well who know the complete ISAF ruleset. Like 99% of sailors I find this nitpickery much too boring and leave it to the racing elite. I'm not one of those elite sailors, sorry. Even if I wanted, my average ping to SL servers is around 500ms, often even much more. Sailing on a highly 'knife between the teeth' competitive level is impossible for me. Yes, this is a perfect proof of what everybody here is trying to tell you: Differing reality. For example when I steer my boat in order to avoid a collision the reaction happens at least half a second later only. And I only see what another boat does half a second later as well. Often too late. So it's impossible for me to see what others are doing in real time. I have a completely different reality than the other skipper. And that's not perceptive reality but objective reality. That's why I try not to sail too close to the fleet and avoid any protests. Another thing: Sim crossings take me about 30 secs while others are crossing with only a minor hiccup. With a fast boat, the moment when I regain control over my boat I'm often already halfways through the sim and only have a couple of secs time to trim sails and change course before the next crossing. So why bother about some rules if they are rendered useless by the system? You are trying to tell a bunch of ppl who are dieing of dehydration during a sandstorm in the Sahara they must drink more water.

Also I never said I don't give a shit. I said it doesn't matter much, since it makes absolutely no sense tryng to imply the full ISAF rules in SL racing. This is the truth and a fact.

True, I didn't enter this thread to share knowledge with you but to offer my expertise in this matter ... oh ... this is kinda sharing of knowledge, isn't it? So I see now that I used wrong terminology. Sorry. :oops: Doesn't matter since you obviously refuse to accept any opinions and facts as they are presented to you in this thread. :roll:

And where please did I state I don't wanna learn? I learn new stuff every day, if I want or not. But the stuff I learn is not necessarily about sailing since it is just a small part of my SL schedule. It's a hobby for my avie, no less no more. Now you can jump me for that statement. :wink:

But what leaves me in fact completely clueless is what the 'opposites attract' saying has to do with anything anybody posted in this thread. :?
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:45 pm

@Nomad: Ok, then I will rephrase... Most of the people I know in RL are interested in using SL as a training tool. I have met a few on SL with a similar intention. These people are interested in full ISAF. My reality is that 97% of the people I know want ISAF rules. My bad, assuming this holds true for most racing sailors. Really sorry.

I absolutely see your point about lag, and your description of the "halucination" problem is spot on. You are right... the fun saps away. Instantly. What I am saying is, and I repeat myself here, the halucination problem is very present on real life race tracks. The rulings usually end up with one happy and one unhappy skipper. They simply saw the situation differently. Noone knows the truth. It is not out there. Again, - if they agreed, there would be no protest.

I can easily agree that we should try to avoid this in SL. In SL we all wanna be happy and have fun sailing. No problems there.
However, I am having difficulties seeing how we can avoid it in SL, when it happens all the time in RL.

Back to the point of my first post... Taking out parts of ISAF rules is bad, because they are designed to work in concert. It makes no sense to remove rules 17 and 12. They serve a purpose, and the rules are defunct without them.

The second point? I really thought I was being positive, energetic and constructive, when I advocated for making SL sailing more realistic. I am surprised to learn that many people do not want that, but fair enough lesson learned. Still surprised though.

Thanx for spelling out the anarchy thing. I had - in fact - no clue about it. I thought SL sailing was organized. It looks organized on the surface with all the websites, the academy and what not. I school I was taught that anarchy is war. I hope SL is different from RL in that respect. Surely, we can coexist attending the races we like.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:22 pm

@Orca: I thought my first post was embracing, constructive and very sailorish. I had three points. First: The full ISAF rule set is designed by brilliant sailors to make sailing fair and fun. Taking out stuff, makes them worse. Second: The lag issue; Third: Lets all work together for a better SL Sailing experience. I also shared few things on what RL sailing is.
I did this in a forum called "racing rules of sailing in second life", - on a website called slsailing.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Nomad Zamani » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:59 pm

noodleqt exonar wrote:@Nomad: Ok, then I will rephrase... Most of the people I know in RL are interested in using SL as a training tool. I have met a few on SL with a similar intention. These people are interested in full ISAF. My reality is that 97% of the people I know want ISAF rules. My bad, assuming this holds true for most racing sailors. Really sorry.

It really doesn't hold true for all. SL is many things to many people - a computer game, an alternative to TV, a creative outlet, a place to socialise, to be involved in group projects, a business game with real market dynamics, a place to indulge in weird fantasies without getting dodgy infections (so I'm told), and a place to sail digital boats in 20kt winds on water that has ripples barely worthy of a force 1. It is used by RL educators - there are training establishments, libraries, museums, and RL students come in and learn stuff. The ability to assemble, texture, and animate prims using scripts makes it an excellent platform to demonstrate RL physical machines, artefacts and processes.

The endless diversity of SL is what makes it attractive, and it attracts many kinds of people. There is huge diversity even within the sailing scene. It's not just a bunch of virtual sailors - there are people who dedicate themselves to making boats, building club environs, running clubs, running races, organising events, creating web sites to inform people about what is happening in the sailing scene, designing and charting race courses, making the start line, windsetter and race mark infrastructure, working with LL to get that infrastructure placed in Linden protected waters all over the grid. Some people take what they do very seriously, and see sailboat racing as a fun break from their SL 'work'. For many, the question of whether the racing rules should be ISAF or something else is just one tiny facet of all this.

If you want to see a setup where races are held using full ISAF rules, and which is used by RL beginner sailors to learn how things work, then go for it. So far as I'm aware, full ISAF rules, or something very close to them, have only been used in some of the major regattas. There may be some regular races that use them, or regular training sessions, at least. If there aren't, go start up your own. Nobody's going to stop you, and nobody's going to complain.


I absolutely see your point about lag, and your description of the "halucination" problem is spot on. You are right... the fun saps away. Instantly. What I am saying is, and I repeat myself here, the halucination problem is very present on real life race tracks. The rulings usually end up with one happy and one unhappy skipper. They simply saw the situation differently. Noone knows the truth. It is not out there. Again, - if they agreed, there would be no protest.

I have to maintain that there is a difference between RL and SL. I am familiar with unhappy RL sailors who are sure that what they thought they saw is what actually happened. In SL, people can be much more sure about what actually happened because SL is a limited representation of a world and has some nifty features to improve visibility (like camming over your boat from above to get a top-down view), but what actually happened is not the same for each computer that is connected to the world. We're not talking about a RL sailor thinking that a boat was far enough away to not collide with it when tacking across its path, but it turned out that it wasn't because he estimated the distance or speed incorrectly. That sort of thing can happen in SL as well. But, in SL, the other boat really can look far enough away on one screen and be too close on another. In other words, the imperfect perceptions of the sailors themselves are compounded by disparate representations of what they are perceiving - the vagueness is twofold. This places the RD in the impossible position of not being able to establish what actually happened. We try to mitigate this in the bigger events by having judges flying around the course, monitoring the boats - in a protest, they provide additional accounts of what may or may not have happened, which can help the RD come to a valid conclusion. In those cases, the sailiors will usually accept the weight of the judges opinions on what occurred - on what the 'real' reality was, or which of the two halves of the dual reality was 'more correct'. We all know that SL can do weird stuff, and the descriptions of independent observers helps to take the heat out of the 'hallucination' aspect. For grass roots sailing (the regular club races), there are rarely, if ever, additional judges. Usually, there is only the RD, and the RD is often sailing in the race as well.


Back to the point of my first post... Taking out parts of ISAF rules is bad, because they are designed to work in concert. It makes no sense to remove rules 17 and 12. They serve a purpose, and the rules are defunct without them.

Whether or not it's bad depends on what the sailors concerned want from a race in SL. If they want full ISAF rules, they'll be unhappy if they don't get that, just as those looking for a casual paint scraper won't be happy if someone starts throwing rule books at them.


The second point? I really thought I was being positive, energetic and constructive, when I advocated for making SL sailing more realistic. I am surprised to learn that many people do not want that, but fair enough lesson learned. Still surprised though.

You're not the first to want to make SL more realistic, and you won't be the last. Realistic in many ways, I mean - not just the rules used in sailboat racing. Most builders that make vehicles will tell you that there are limits which are very hard to surmount, if not impossible. For example, collision detection is poor when a boat is made of sculpts (swoopy boat-shaped prims rather than angular standard prims). Sculpted boats can have parts of each other passing through each other with no physical effect - they 'collide', but there is no physical contact in terms of the in-world physics implemetation. Sailing at close quarters, if the sailors are fussy, can end up being an argument about overlapping pixels, and no actual bumping of boats.

The reality is that we can only make SL realsitic up to a point, and builders are always looking for ways to do things better. Sometimes LL introduce new features in the scripting language, and these can help, but we still constantly come up against limitations imposed on us by the platform. There is only so much that one can do. For the users of the builders' products, it's a case of understanding that there are limits, and being willing to compromise (or put up with it) when things go weird or vehicles don't behave as they would in RL. The danger with applying a full ISAF ruleset is that that ruleset is based on a real world physical reality that doesn't do the weird stuff that can happen in the SL reality. On a slight tanget, but appropos all the same, the rules on safety (1.1 and 1.2) are simply not applicable in SL - nobody is ever in danger, and nobody needs to carry PFDs. A full ISAF implementation might result in all boats being DSQ for infringing rule 1.2.


Thanx for spelling out the anarchy thing. I had - in fact - no clue about it. I thought SL sailing was organized. It looks organized on the surface with all the websites, the academy and what not. I school I was taught that anarchy is war. I hope SL is different from RL in that respect. Surely, we can coexist attending the races we like.

Not war, just people doing their own thing, and the amalgam of these things generally working together to produce a diverse whole that people can participate in where they see fit. The web sites are all independent productions, as is the sailing academy, every yacht club, and every major regatta. They happen because people decide to make them happen. In so doing, it's their sandbox, and they get to decide the rules (whether 'they' is a single person or an organising group). The end users then look at what's available and choose whatever they prefer. Coexistence in the sense of people attending races that they like is exactly how it works.
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Jane Fossett » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:17 pm

Yikes.
I've been here four years, and sail a lot in RL and SL.
The above series of comments seem a bit argumentative and a 'tempest in a teapot' with little purpose.

Thinking back, the first post I did to SLSailing.com a long time ago argued in favor of a progressively more realistic sailing emulation in Second Life.
I thought we were all moving in that direction, and I'm still convinced that's our common goal.

At the same time, there are many limitations imposed by the evolving digital medium along the way.
It will take considerable time to sort things out.
However, that should not stop us from developing regatta work-arounds.
Perhaps more importantly, it should not stop us from focusing on the the real goal: to build and expand a robust, complex sailing community online.

For over four years here, in that context many skilled RDs have promoted a full RL set of Sailing Rules,
while others have just-as-strongly argued for more limited, progressive rulesets.
I think BOTH views are correct.
I know both views are supported by wonderful, experienced, and committed sailors.

There are MANY sailors here with different perspectives.
They have a right to hold regattas based on the rulesets appropriate for their fleet and their goals.

One small example:
For the past two years, Armchair has argued that Rule 31 is inappropriate for the generic SL RRS he proposed; he thought it should be discarded.
I keep thinking the opposite: Rule 31 is part of the RL RRS and it's pretty simple; we should adapt it for SL.
My guess is that Noodle might agree with that view.

However, Arm's points are well considered, based on much experience, and supported by many experienced SL Skippers.
I'm also the first to admit Arm is a way better sailor than I am in RL or SL :-)
This small rules disagreement is between repectful friends, and frankly, it's part of the fun here.

It's ok to disagree; that's a common part of RL sail racing and part of growing SLSailing too;
but hey... let's please keep it fun. :-)
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby noodleqt exonar » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:17 am

Regarding rule 31, touching a mark.
I wasn't really looking for more trouble. However, we aren't getting anywhere by putting a lid on issues, so here goes:

In RL you can move the marks. By speculating in that, you can actually change the course and thereby create an advantage for yourself. This might give you - and others an advantage, whilst yet others might be hurt from it. Not good.

Some radio controlled classes allow the touching of marks. There are two reasons for this. We cannot move the mark, because the boat is much lighter than the mark. We cannot see the details, as often times we are a fifty meters or more from the situation itself. What we can see, it if someone does not round the mark correctly.

On SL it is like radio controlled racing with regards to rule 31. We cannot move the marks, and we cannot really see, if he or did he not touch the mark. However, the marks can tell us that, provided collision-detect works on SL. I hear it has problems with those designer shapes, ehh... sculpted boats I think it is called.

Now, the tricky part... and here is the difference between RL and SL sailors spelled out:
Because I have a background as a RL sailor, I want rule 31. You cannot hit the mark; Its like the ball has to be in - in tennis. So even if I can see no reason for having rule 31 on SL, I'd like to have it. Its part of the universal order. Beside that, I think it is messy having two sets of rules; Kinda like meters versus feet and inches. Messy. No reason to confuse people.

To all the trolls, - this is just my humble opinion, ok...

Cheers,
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Re: Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Postby Orca Flotta » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:41 am

Jane Fossett wrote:The above series of comments seem a bit argumentative and a 'tempest in a teapot' with little purpose.


Yes Jane, that always happens as soon as a certain Orca Flotta enters the discussion and drags it down to a low level of rethoric skills but a very highly engaged personal level. And you're right again, our arguments serve no purpose since they won't change zip on SL sailing. This whole thread is just about the education of one sailor who doesn't even want to learn and keeps on repeating her wrong conclusions.

Sorry, but I just don't like reading unrealistic stuff like 'Let's all work together for a better SL' (most of us are not employees of LL and can't do shit to make anything better) and offensive remarks like 'SL sailors are breaking the rules because they are a bad sailors and hallucinating' (showing over and over how little understanding of SL some ppl have), and calling that gibberish "embracing, constructive and sailorish". I found it to be offending, useless, arrogant, aggressive, elitist and sailorish (still waiting for explanation of that term). Sorry again, but if my opinion, my sharing of SL knowledge makes me a "troll" (a bit of knowledge from my part: Trolll is about the most offensive word one can use in the internet) in the eyes of some ppl, I can't help it.

Noodles isn't the first crusader trying to burn down our mosque to bring enlightenment to us unwashed masses and she for sure won't be the last. I sense it too, there speaks a lot of frustration from her posts. Maybe that's what makes her so aggro against any wisdom shared by others ...
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