Racing Rules of Sailing in Second Life - RRSSL

Discuss racing matters here. Note that race results and past rules cases have their own sections.

Postby Liv Leigh » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:54 pm

I assume it will be the moment the first of 2 boats is entering the circle that defines whether there is an overlap or not.

Funny how with the video broadcast the incident from my race suddenly turns in my favour again. When looking back at jane's pictures I assumed Ody was entitled to room here and the foul was mine.

joepie and Julia's fun race this afternoon could have been different again. On this course, the 2 boat-lenght area is entered within a second after a tight turn, which is highly unusual, so it gives way to lots of controversy after races.
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Postby M1sha Dallin » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:48 pm

Overlap is measured at the time the first yacht enters the 2 boat length zone. It is determined by whether there is any part of another yacht forward of a line projected abeam from the transom of the first boat (see attachment). Note that distance from the other yacht does not affect overlap, though it affects whether there is any significance to it

So in the first of joepie's pictures the second yacht is forward of that projection and therefore has overlap. In the video the second yacht is not and therefore does not.
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Postby joepie Korobase » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:14 pm

OK! that clarifies the overlap thing i never understood :lol:

Tnx again.

Its cool discussing these things to get a better understanding of the rules, the film footage certainly helps me lots.

Maybe some film wizz (wink wink) can cut out some weird situation snippets and show em here so we can discuss and learn some more.

xxx
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Postby Armchair Binder » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:37 am

Here are all kinds of racing scenarios to help learn and to test your knowledge.
http://www.ukhalsey.com/RulesQuiz/index.asp
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Odys and Liv redux

Postby Jane Fossett » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:51 am

Wow!
Thanks to joepie for returning to this issue.
I was the umpire at that marker, and called them overlapped from my vantage point and viewer.
I went back and pulled the frames I have, which don't really answer the question.
The first frame shows them overlapped on starboard tack, with OY leeward and ahead.
LL then tacks to the mark, and it looks like OY hesitates for a moment before following suit.
The third frame is tough...
#1: did LL get fully in the circle before OY hit the two boat line?
#2: Is that even relevent? I mean, were they still 'overlapped?'

For Q#1: At the time I was watching, I judged the boats 'overlapped' entering the 2 boat circle. When OY's bow hit that line, I did not think LL's stern was fully inside the circle. Looking at the pictures below, I admit that call could have been wrong... it seems likely LL was in the circle a fraction of a second ahead. In my defense, I can only claim Rule 18e: "If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not."

For Q#2: This is a tougher issue... defining 'overlap' in SL. I'm defining it in a bizarre way here. Stuart's comments above are correct for RL racing, but the distortions in the SL Client perspective and frequent jumpy boat movements often make it hard to apply on-the-fly geometry to 'real time second life racing.'
I admit I have no real justification of doing this, but I usually look to see if two boats on same tack are simultaneously touching the line at any point as they enter the zone. That's an easier call to make. If they are both touching the line at the same time, I've been calling them overlapped. However, if one boat's stern gets over before the other's bow touches the line... there can't possibly be any overlap.

I agree that definition is a misreading and misapplication of the strict rule, as a boat clearly astern could hit the circle at a different point, and the critical issue is really whether the boats are overlapped at the moment the lead boat first touches the 2-boat length line.

This is a great discussion, since it might clarify how we make these kinds of calls for SL races in the future.
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Postby Tim Warrhol » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:19 am

Just a curious question here. It seems as though most of the real life RRS have been left intact here, as they should. A few things are out of place.

1. Rule 17 has been completely dropped. This is an important rule as it determines a skippers rights to proper course on an off wind leg. I do see how in SL it would be hard to determine when an overlap is established, but no more difficult then it would be for rule 18. Im not nit picking just curious about the background, and why it was omitted.

2. Rule 19 in the ISAF RRS discusses two boats close-hauled on the same tack having room to tack for an obstruction. The way it is worded here, it is any boat approaching an obstruction has room to tack or gybe. There are some technicalities as to why the ISAF rule has evolved the way that it has. Mainly because a leeward, same tack, close-hauled boat is the only scenario where the only option is to tack for an obstruction. Additionally if the obstruction is another ROW boat, the leeward boat always has the option to duck. If he is being held by another leeward boat, that boat is subject to rule 11. If the boats are down wind, and lets say the are both approaching an obstruction on the same tack, the boats would be bound by rule 17:) to sail proper course, (obviously sailing into an obstruction is not proper course!) When boats are approaching on opposite tacks rule 10 always applies, unless they are downwind approaching a mark of the course or continuing obstruction.

The absence of rule 17 and the abbreviation of rule 19 creates a very dangerous set of circumstances.

Anyhow I wont ramble. Just trying to understand the background on why this was done, so my brain can process it on the race course.

I also noticed rule 14 gone. The age old question in virtual sailing! Whats damage? Boat developers, start working on this one!

Thanks
Tim
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Postby Stuart Choche » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:21 pm

Hi Tim. nice to see, that somebody is interested in rules here ;)

If fact most of the multiplicators joined the opinion, the complete set of rules is too complicated for the majority of sailors. Secondly there are some SL disadvantages like a proper overview over the surrounding and overlapping for example is hard to decide.

I don't agree, but its like it is.
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Can we sticky this thread?

Postby Naeve Rossini » Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:46 pm

Background on me: I started sailing in SL in early April 2009. I started racing in early May. I have never set foot on a sailboat in RL.

Early on, whenever the RD started the timer, I was really worried... not about doing well, but about screwing up the rules and interfering with someone else who was more experienced.

I wish I'd known of this thread before today.

In light of the discussions over in this thread (), of which some of the opinions don't appear to be new, I would like to propose two things:

1. Make this thread sticky.

2. Tim Warrhol mentions the omission of Rules 17 and 19. Should they be reintroduced to the RRSSL and are there any other updates that are necessary?

My interest is in elevating the quality of racing in SL. I'd like to get those who have walked away back into the fold and for those of us who are new to be taught how to race properly before we settle in on bad habits.

I'm not interested in entertaining laments about how new racers just don't know how to race. In my opinion, it's the responsibility of the incumbents to educate the newcomers and, if they are unwilling to observe the rules or even try, they should be barred from events.

I'm also open to constructive discourse on how to implement and educate new racers on these rules. I'm of the opinion that it should be done without making the offender wrong and also making it clear that such behaviour won't be tolerated, though that may be a topic for another thread.
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aggregated thinking

Postby Jane Fossett » Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:12 am

I agree some form of 'stcky rules' makes sense, but which rules are enforced and how the rules are applied varies across different regattas (regattae?).
There are several threads on org about Rules, and at one point I started aggregating the links to a page on Metaverse.
Collecting the links to those different discussions and resources makes a lot of sense, I think.
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Postby Axle Wharton » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:03 pm

I like Naeve, have never stepped rl on a sailing vessel.

I find more pleasure in racing what I call Clean" racing", Ive learned that a good skipper is far more "respected" than one that actually sets out to use the rules, as an advantage.

For me - Hell, lets race, you beat me- fine -- thanks for teaching me another trick of the trade * giggles

I realise only the power of God, LOL, I mean placing top 10 would tickle me. I'm looking forward to the sweaty palms, my very small Sl sailing experience, My instructors " words of wisdom" and JUST PLAIN HAVING FUN!

Many of you have raced me, I'd rather duck away in most cases, however, Auntie and I are now on Sailing Rules, there, your forwarned,

Axle

P.S. Jane? I understand overlap, I see none in frame 3 - or was wind the deciding issue? if it was, wind had to be comming from the top right corner of the pic -- just my thoughts, lemme know pls
Don't look back, your not going that way!
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Postby Aleister Biondetti » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:25 am

Axle Wharton wrote: I find more pleasure in racing what I call Clean" racing", Ive learned that a good skipper is far more "respected" than one that actually sets out to use the rules, as an advantage.

Thats actually considered "Gaming the rules". But calling for ROW when someone is going to ram you is not. :)

Armchair Binder wrote:7. At the discretion of the race director, attempts to "game" the rules can lead to disqualification. Gaming the rules is loosely defined as using the ruleset to violate the fundamental purpose of the ruleset, which is to create an environment where The purpose of rules are to keep boats sailing competitively and "safely", not provide opportunities to win by other means than excellence in sailing skills.


Axle Wharton wrote:Auntie and I are now on Sailing Rules, there, your forwarned.

Great news Axle. I'm sure you will find that understanding the rules will enhance your sailing experience not detract from it. And don't worry about getting confused or not understanding everything. We are all continually learning and in sailing this process never stops at any level, from learning here in SL to the Americas Cup.

It does amaze me to this day the fear of the rules. I can't imagine competing in something that I didn't understand the rules. Would people play basketball or football? or any other RL activity without a basic understanding of the rules? And here in SL we have a set of only 6 rules. I would be hard pressed to find another sport or competition that has so few.

But then again knowledge of the rules is no guarantee of good sailing. I have been fouled / rammed many more times in rule enforced races than in ones that are openly “rule free”.

So have fun Axle and look forward to seeing you on the water.
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Gaming the rules vs. Excellence in sailing

Postby Pensive Mission » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:35 pm

Aleister Biondetti wrote:Thats actually considered "Gaming the rules". But calling for ROW when someone is going to ram you is not. :)
Armchair Binder wrote:7. At the discretion of the race director, attempts to "game" the rules can lead to disqualification. Gaming the rules is loosely defined as using the ruleset to violate the fundamental purpose of the ruleset, which is to create an environment where The purpose of rules are to keep boats sailing competitively and "safely", not provide opportunities to win by other means than excellence in sailing skills.
...
It does amaze me to this day the fear of the rules. I can't imagine competing in something that I didn't understand the rules. Would people play basketball or football? or any other RL activity without a basic understanding of the rules? And here in SL we have a set of only 6 rules. I would be hard pressed to find another sport or competition that has so few.

With all due respect to Aleister, who is a gentleman beyond reproach regardless of rules, I don't think it is quite so black and white.

One of my strongest memories in SL racing was being rubbed off at the start mark by one of the premier racers in SL. This ticked me off no end; it seemed at least rude and unnecessary, and didn't fit the rules as I (then and now) dimly understood them. I can see all the virtual eyeballs rolling at my startling naivete, but it seems to me that given the wide range of experience in the SL races we will always have the situation where one person's gaming the rules is another's excellence in sailing.

As to the point about understanding the rules, I remember some new guy coming out to the street basketball court, joining a team and when he got the ball, running off down the court without dribbling. He was amazed when it was pointed out to him that it was illegal, and he even argued that we were picking nits. I was on one side of the issue then, and the other side when I was forced out of a race at the start. My point is, a little understanding goes a long way.

-- Pensive
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Re: Gaming the rules vs. Excellence in sailing

Postby Jane Fossett » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:45 pm

Pensive Mission wrote: ... One of my strongest memories in SL racing was being rubbed off at the start mark...

I love Pensive...
he was, I think, one of the few people I met my second day in SL that I got to know well thereafter...
[RJ and Tasha were the others].
Pensive? Focus...
This is "Wind over Wave" discussion...
xxx!
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Postby Armchair Binder » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:02 pm

The second post of this thread now has a compilation of past rules discussions
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Postby MarkTwain White » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:08 am

Tim Warrhol wrote:Just a curious question here. It seems as though most of the real life RRS have been left intact here, as they should. A few things are out of place.

1. Rule 17 has been completely dropped. This is an important rule as it determines a skippers rights to proper course on an off wind leg. I do see how in SL it would be hard to determine when an overlap is established, but no more difficult then it would be for rule 18. Im not nit picking just curious about the background, and why it was omitted.


From a long past discussion on why we did not include Rule 17 in the original rules...

MarkTwain White wrote:As I am sure we all have observed, many in the SL sailing community still struggle with even the simpliest of racing rules (rules 10 and 11). Can you imagine what it would be like out there if we introduced "proper course" into our rule set? That is a major reason we have not used Rule 17 as one of our LIMITED number of protestable rules at SYC, ACA-SL Cup, and Tako Cup.


The full post and discussion in context is here:

http://slsailing.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5213#5213
SIM PRESERVATION PROJECT -- http://simpreservation.com
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