Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Jane Fossett » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:12 pm

SoundsGoodToMe :-)
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby noodleqt exonar » Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:41 am

Perhaps I should try to sum it up - from my perspective...

Rita and others: Full ISAF ROW ruleset is the issue. Why? Because these rules are so much part of the game. I don't mean to discuss ISAF rules. I mean to discuss the problems in applying those rules to SL Sailing. Some people seem to believe it cannot be done.

To me RL sailing is a game. Moving that game to SL is great fun, and the better the simulation, the more fun it is. Yacht clubs promoting toy rules will - to me - remain toy-clubs. Nonono, - that is not an insult. It is fine to regard sl sailing as a toy. Cruise, race, play tag, - just as we do in RL. Yacht racing as such is a game on any platform. RL, Playstation, SL, whatever... but it is not yacht racing, if you race with funny rules. That makes it an arcade game. Again, if you prefer that... fine.

Are u asking me to play chess? Ok, so Queen takes pawn, right! No? Then, - what are we playing here?

Imperfections of the SL world should not justify the acceptance of different rules. End of world, phantom rocks, rocksolid marks and other issues should not be "solved" by using funny rules. They should be solved by the RD. The course should be chosen with great care to avoid these special cases of SL anomaly.

I agree with Nomad and Quirky that the boats need some work. I just don't think we should accept bad boats as the reason for not having great rules. I think we should challenge SL in itself, bouy makers, boat builders and RDs to make things more realistic. I know for sure, that the Shelly has great mouselook sailing. The QSM40 now has it too.

The full row rules are more complex. We all need to learn something. Sailors and RDs. It will be fun. However the ruling should really become easier, when the rules cover the situations at hand. Unclear rules, reversing ROW, undefined situations all make it harder.

Now, I have stated my case, and I will probably not posts more in this thread. I'd much rather get inworld and do some RDing, help people resolve rules issues, show someone the joy of crewed sailing, discuss optimal trimming, and maybe even race a little. To me, that's what sailing is about.
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Don Berithos » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:52 am

Well Im here in Dubai and ive been afforded the convented media spot on the head referees Boat . Thinking to my self do I dare ask about this subject to two well traveled officials heres there back grounds.International Jury Chairman and Chief Umpire
Bill Edgerton is the Jury Chairman and Chief Umpire for the Louis Vuitton Trophy in Auckland. The umpires are important to racing because they follow the matches on the water and issue immediate decisions in right-of-way situations between the boats. Edgerton, of the U.K., is both an ISAF International Judge and International Umpire. In 2007 he was an Umpire for the Louis Vuitton Cup and 32nd America’s Cup, and was Chief Umpire for the 33rd AC in Febraury. In the past Edgerton was the keelboat coach for the Royal Yachting Association.

Principal Race Officer
Peter Reggio, of the United States, is the Principal Race Officer for the Louis Vuitton Trophy. The PRO is responsible for conducting racing according to the schedule and determining whether boats have properly started and finished. Reggio is an ISAF International Race Officer. Affectionately known to all as “Luigi,” Reggio was the PRO in 2007 for the 32nd America’s Cup and Louis Vuitton Cup. In 2008 he was a PRO for the Olympic Regatta in China. Reggio says the key to being a good PRO is listening to the sailors’while still maintaining the independence to make the tough decisions. Well that out the way I did and apparenty the viewed it like this the upcomming americas cup will almost be like sailing in virtuial world Bill told me yesterday with heads up displays for the umpires and officails A box that interacts like the Nfls first down line on tv that is being devoled by same creater an avit sailor himself which helps he went on to say .
Basically the americas cup new format will change the way regattas are run all over the world .
Marks that tend them selves and with the speeds the cats will be doing match racing that has never been seen before .
On the venue Question Most BMW Oracle spokesman are very tight lipped on it I can only get a sort of facial answer
when asking . December 30 looks like the day .
Bill went on to tell me that were ever it held there is a proposed net loss for who ever holds the event . In the billions . With that said it really gona be who can absorb the losses and who really needs the gains as far as local economy boosts . Im sure you all know what were betting on . WSTa welcomed our propsials for the San Francisco Site and it is now under review . They were amazed we had al ready had the infrusture in place.
So ISAF rules on current platform i can only see we need innovative huds crated or interactive boxes that are being developed now. As far as Match racing is concerned there will have to be observer assigned to each boat and umpire or judge . Judges need to put them selves in the helmsman spot calling of the action to there counterpart . Perhaps in skpee.or on private voice . Third the competing boat should have a tactician that obsevers from above relaying again in skpee or private voice to there skipper status of there boat and other . This wold work of course untill someone crashes.

You want rl rules well this how its done in reallife i should know im on the head officials boat ever day here In Dubai and its art like a dance the way they do this .Image

Image
If you have any Question you would like to ask directly to the officails here email me or comment on Isail
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby noodleqt exonar » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:14 am

Don, thanx for sharing, but... Lets not get carried away here. The LVT and the entire AC race setup is impressive, but it is also being pumped up to a level of circusness that leaves little room for good old fashioned sailing skills. We'd hardly need that in SL, if we wanna have ordinary people join the fun. At least we won't need it on everyday races. For years and years fleetraces have been done with a judge, a jury and no observers on the track. I've done many years of MR training in the DS37, and we could always have a great training session without any umpires at all. It only requires fairness from the contestants. Point is - keep it on a level where we - mostly - need sailors. It can be done in RL; I think it is perfectly possible in SL too.
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Liv Leigh » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:47 am

Agree with noodle there: while the possibilities in expensive international sailing events are enormous, in SL we have to deal with a limited number of people. Some tasks around the courses could maybe be automated in some ways, but it will still leave you with the situations in which you have 1 rd/judge, who is unable to see all that happens.
There are simply not enough people around to run races like this in SL. And if there were, we would face the next issue: all those extra avatars would put so much strain on region resources of our barely functioning homesteads and voids that sailing itself would become impossible.
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby joro Aya » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:01 am

heh, i should read these formus more often, and not only the race results page. sorry for jumping on the bnadwagon so late, but here comes the oppinion of a SL sailer who's never set a foot on a RL boat and didn't know the 1st thing about rules when she started.

in the relatively short time that i have sailed in SL, i found that the limited SL ruleset seems to more often cause problems and conflicts then solve them.
it seems that the ISAF rules that are about ROW and about sailor conduct could solve many of these problems.
things that are SL specific like phantom rocks and end of world sim edges could easilly be solved by notice of race instructions or even by adding small and simple things to the ruleset. yes, that would mean more rules instead of less.
so even though i have trouble remembering all the rules and i don't always understand them fully, i would like it very much if we used the ISAF set with some small modifications where necesary instead of the crippled SL set.

i do forsee a problem though. using the ISAF set could scare off new sailers.
i think we should all make it clear that the rules are not there to make things harder and that nobody will get executed for not knowing them or accidently breaking them. we should make it clear that a DSQ because You fouled doesn't make You a bad person or unwelcome. i think we should make it clear that everybody is welcome to participate in the races, but that we do expect that new sailers at least make an efford to learn the rules.
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby noodleqt exonar » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:27 am

Yay! There is hope. Thanx Joro :-) IMHO, You are right about the NOR and the rules solving many problems as u state in paragraph two. Gotta say though, the spirit put forward in your section three is sooo much the spirit that we always try to have in the RL sailing community. If we can capture that in SL, then there is a future for sailing in SL. If only you could see the smile on my face...
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Jane Fossett » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:37 pm

noodleqt exonar wrote:Yay! There is hope. Thanx Joro :-) IMHO, You are right about the NOR and the rules solving many problems as u state in paragraph two. Gotta say though, the spirit put forward in your section three is sooo much the spirit that we always try to have in the RL sailing community. If we can capture that in SL, then there is a future for sailing in SL. If only you could see the smile on my face...

I initially argued in this thread for the 'partial' SLSailing ruleset.
It came from many discussions over past years here that involved many sailors and multiple regattas.
This thread was a good chance to re-think the issue; I know many others think faster than I do. :-)

ONE WORLD is 'full ISAF rules.'
So far that decision has only helped, making judging easier.
Maybe 'The RL Rules' should indeed be "The SL Rules?'

Or maybe there are just "The Rules," wherever you sail! :-)

Thx to Noodle and Joro!
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Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby Liv Leigh » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:44 am

Starting today, the graded Flying Fizz, but also Shelly races at Tradewinds Yacht Club will be held under the full ISAF ruleset. We will use the Notice of Race to implement adjustments to SL-specific issues.
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby noodleqt exonar » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:35 am

Double yay!
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Re: Racing with ISAF rules in Second Life

Postby noodleqt exonar » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:29 am

Just a followup to those mouselook lovers...
(I am one of those myself)

You can remap the keys in mouselook and make (allmost) any key do steering, hiking and trimming;
Found out yesterday; Works great on Flying Fizz.

Apparently, you can also remap cam controls. If that works, there's loads of keys available to whatever simulator ur building. Boats, trains, planes...
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