WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

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WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Joyofrlc Acker » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:45 am

I have posted some proposals on the dotco forum
http://forum.slsailing.co/index.php/topic,398.0.html

Please comment!
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Lance Corrimal » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:58 am

can't, don't have an account there... and I don't *need* more forum accounts :P
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Joyofrlc Acker » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:33 pm

Lance just for you! (well and any others in the same boat)


WWC Setter Upgrade Project
=======================

Bea has started a thread about WWC, which is mostly about the possibility of going forward on an Open Source basis.

I did post in there some question about use of the setter but it may have got lost in the other discussion (only Bea really replied!), so Im restarting it here. This is to inform possible incremental upgrades to it for Hays next release of her start line.

HERE, Im not concerned with possibilities for any radical rethink - please post any such ideas in Beas original thread or perhaps start another one.

PLEASE GIVE SOME FEEDBACK!!


Highest Priority Issues
===================
IMHO the top priority issues for wind / wind setters currently in SL are:

- "Losing the wind" when skipper is thrown overboard, or on rerezz after a crash
- Skipper not realising he has the wrong wind (until he wonders why hes tacking when everyone else is on a reach LOL)

Secondarily there are some ease of use issues.

Premise is that there should be no changes required to boat scripts.

Potential Project items
===================

These are not in any particular order. Details given after the summary.

1. Automatic give to skippers of 'rescue HUD' for current race.
2. Race "subscribe" for Tako boats
3. "Race resume" phase-in (gradual change over several minutes)
4. Improve the menus.
5. Rationalise setter chat msgs
6. RD HUD
7. Notecard maintenance (add / edit / delete)

1. Automatic give to skippers of 'rescue HUD' for current race.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skipper would save it to inventory. Upon rerezzing or otherwise losing the wind, wear the HUD. It will query the setter for current settings, then "transmit" in the usual manner for the boat to pick up. Once under way, the HUD is detached.
There is the possibility of problems if the rerezz is near another setter and the boat has not subscribed to the race (ie the Kanker channel is being used). Cant think of a solution to this one right now.

2. Race "subscribe" for Tako boats
---------------------------------------------
Activated by touching the wind setter (easiest if its in the green buoy at end of the line).
Skipper will get messages about the wwc settings (RD controls how much info, see below). Will also help with the rescue HUD, but not essential for that.

3. "Race resume" phase-in (gradual change over several minutes)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Extended command, eg
race resume 10 20
... Will phase in the new parms in steps over 10 minutes with 20 second intervals. This is more realistic than the current all at once approach. Doing it in the setter means its backwards compatible. However means sending repeat emails. Sooo MIN step, 10 seconds (say). Only works for boats that are using WWC Receiver / Interpreter scripts (or functional equivalents ie Fizz engined (incl JG44), ACA, Quest, and new BWind)

4. Improve the menus.
-----------------------------
(Unless NObody is using them!)
- include some preset combinations; customisable by the owner for particular race line
- "favourites" of Notecard settings on a menu (maybe overlaps prev item)
- include shifts and gusts on the detail menu

5. Rationalise setter chat msgs
---------------------------------------
This is not yet even half baked.
Most messages issued by llSay which means the RD needs to be within 20 m. This can be a problem. They are almost all intended as for the RD only I think.
Maybe RD should get messages via IM (technical issue here though)

Some messages could be of use to skippers, especially those on boats like Wildwinds that do not specify what race settings have been accepted.
Wind dir & speed, current dir & speed should be "public" and issued on RegionSay (no body puts a race line near a sim border, right? )
Shifts & gusts settings might be public - should be up to the RD
Change rate probably not public.
Wave settings not important?

Not sure if this might all be too much effort for maybe not a very big issue; and if we go the "RD HUD" route and also 'race subscribe' for Tako boats e dont need any changes here.

6. RD HUD
--------------
Primary use: remote changing of settings mid race, and issuing race resume (ie while RD is out on the course).
Additionally, may relate to addressing some of the issues in [4] and [5], and perhaps integrating with the start line menu and maybe other functions. These aspects not yet thought through.

7. Notecard maintenance (add / edit / delete)
----------------------------------------------------------
Currently (I think) 'most' RDs can drop a Notecard into the setter. But are then unable to edit to delete it. One approach is to move the notecards to something like Google Apps (similar to Traps Nav HUD for Race LMs) so allowing the 'owner' of a notecard to edit / delete. In-world solutions can get tricky I think with SL permission systems etc.
It would also be possible to copy Notecards etc.
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Hay Ah » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:06 am

Wow, this feedback really gets you going don't it ?
The whole sailing community wants to have all new stuff and features and new things added to the old windsetter and such, but there is really NOONE responding here ?

There is SO MUCH work for JoyofRLC to do here, if you all could imagine you'd do that on a daily basis you'd go away and never sail in SL ever at all !
Look, it is as it is, i know, but Joy is here NOW and she voluntarily wants to add something to this sailing community.

This is unbelievable, no support here (it has been a month !!)....nothing at all...it really breaks my heart to see...
especially when EVERYONE in this sailing community will enjoy the fruits of her labour...


Come on now...
"Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things you only hoped for." - Epicurus
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Nomad Zamani » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:37 pm

Needs a coder for anything to happen at all. I suspect that most people aren't interested in the technical minutiae of how windsetters work, even if they feel there are limitations (like losing race wind after a crash/rerez). Since it is clearly a technical discussion, most people are unlikely to feel that they have much to add.

The whole windsetter thing is overly complicated as it is - I almost never used the things because I felt that I had to suss out how every time I did. While some of Joy's suggestions might seek to make things simpler, some make things more complex, like the rescue hud - everybody gets given one at the start of the race, has to remember to wear it or has to find it in a hurry if it's a one-shot thing for that race. If the latter, inventories will rapidly become full of out of date rescue huds. It's a way to fix a problem, but it may well bring problems of its own.

Rather than trying to patch a system that has flaws, I would question the validity of the whole system. Personally, I don't like the windsetter system, or the skipper wind thing, come to that. The variety of winds in SL is the primary reason that there is a dire lack of understanding of the rules of the road amongst the sailing public beyond regular racers and those who have sailed in RL. There has been so much talk about realistic sailing simulations, yet the only boats sailing in the same wind are those that are participating in the same race. And, the conditions very rarely change week in, week out. Anyone who has sailed regularly in RL knows that this is utter nonsense.

I think that what's needed is a radical rethink of what the wind system (meaning the overall grid-wide wind infrastructure) is supposed to acheive. Define the goals first, and then see if the existing system suits them, or can be a viable foundation for development.
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Nomad Zamani » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:30 am

Nomad Zamani wrote:I think that what's needed is a radical rethink of what the wind system (meaning the overall grid-wide wind infrastructure) is supposed to acheive. Define the goals first, and then see if the existing system suits them, or can be a viable foundation for development.

To add to the above...

Why do we have this windsetter system at all? The windsetter came about because SL wind is crap. Rather than make a wind simulation that emulates typical real world wind, LL came up with something that goes round and round in circles. If SL wind had, for example, a prevailing direction with a fairly wide variance of speed and direction over a long period, modified with shorter-term shifts and gusts, would the windsetter have been invented?
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Hay Ah » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:24 am

The resque HUD will be the most simplistic help you can ever get in sl sailing.
Even people with an IQ under the treshold of utterly dumb can handle it.
If you crash while you are in a race, there is NO way at this moment you can ever get the same wind back again...

So ! Now you only have to wear a HUD for a couple of seconds and whammm! you have your wind again.
Like that huh ?
Yea ^ ^

So i think everyone must agree this is a huge, if not magnificent, addition to sailing races.
Even in the case if you think it is much too hard to wear a HUD, and you worry about your inventory system, which makes you worry about the sl system aswell and therefore worry about life itself :D

Offcourse as long as there is nothing better, we have to deal with the current wind systems available.
The theoretic possibilities of what we could have or what should have been best for all wind in SL is not discussed here.
It should be discussed in some other forum.

Right now, we have someone who is willing to do a lot of work for free.
Right now WE ALL have the possibility to complain about the existing wind system instead of complaining when it is a finished product !

You just have to think of something you'd like to have changed now ^ ^
"Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things you only hoped for." - Epicurus
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Nomad Zamani » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:10 am

Hay Ah wrote:The theoretic possibilities of what we could have or what should have been best for all wind in SL is not discussed here.
It should be discussed in some other forum.

Right now, we have someone who is willing to do a lot of work for free.


I think you missed my point. If one is going to put a lot of effort into something, it is generally considered wise to work out exactly what that effort should go into. If a better way of doing it is there to be discovered, then I think it should be discussed before lots of effort goes into what might be the wrong thing.
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Chakku451 Rieko » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:32 am

Nomad Zamani wrote:Why do we have this windsetter system at all? The windsetter came about because SL wind is crap. Rather than make a wind simulation that emulates typical real world wind, LL came up with something that goes round and round in circles. If SL wind had, for example, a prevailing direction with a fairly wide variance of speed and direction over a long period, modified with shorter-term shifts and gusts, would the windsetter have been invented?


I see a potential solution as a 3 step program...

1. The sailing community hashes out just exact what we (the sailing community) want the SL wind to do in regards to SL sailing.

2. The sailing community finds out which Linden is currently in charge of SL wind.

3. A duly appointed panel of 3 to 7 members of the sailing community open a dialog with said Linden and see if the ideas from Step 1 can be implemented and if so, how long implemation will take. I nominate MarkTwain White and Don Berithos for two of the panel positions.

Step 2a. The Administrator, if it is his will, redirects this to a new thread.
When life gets you down and you feel totally depressed, there's only one thing to do...

RAISE SAIL!!!

=^.^=
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Joyofrlc Acker » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:33 am

"Fixing SL wind for sailors" is an interesting concept.

One wonders how LL would prioritise that versus other projects, like:
- fixing SL wind for Hang-Gliders
- fixing sim-border crossings
- reducing lag
etc.

And don't forget currents and waves. and theres a thought ... make the SL water properly reflect the wave & current conditions.

Starting with a blank sheet of paper, as it were, the first question in designing a new wind system would be given that we are in a computer simulation, should all objects / agents at a given location at a particular point in time experience the same weather (wind, current, waves)?

The corollary to that would be, who decides what that weather should be? Globally, or regionally.

Of course if we consider ourselves limited to simply trying to simulate RL then the answers are "Yes", and "God / who knows?" But perhaps one of the benefits to being in a computer simulation is the ability to transcend RL, in particular to have purpose-specific weather. We certainly don't limit ourselves in the forms that our Avis take.

Personally I like the idea of being able to tailor the weather for a particular race, or to modify the wind between successive laps etc.

While it would be interesting to start the process that Chakkur451 suggests, I am not optimistic we'd see concrete results any time soon. The answer to step 2 would indeed be fascinating; the idea that a specific Linden is actually devoted to SL wind. It may take all year to just get that name!
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Joyofrlc Acker » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:04 pm

By the way, Nomad, the RezQ HUD (which is almost ready for beta test) has not involved much effort beyond my having to learn some new tricks (Google Apps for example) and as such Im not sure that really counts.
My motivation is simply that we have an immediate problem, to which there is a fairly immediate solution; and that the more radical alternatives will almost certainly take a while to come to fruition (if they ever do). I would wager that wind setters will still be in use this time next year.

The other items in the upgrade proposal, some are very easy, some maybe not so much. (The tweak to race resume I had coded a while back in a test wind setter, for example). And I was requesting feedback on the various ideas for basically the same reason you cite --- but in the context of it being worth while to make some improvements now and that does not preclude pursuing other long-term radical new (or not so new!) approaches (I think iirc I mentioned the idea of server based currents reflecting local geography).
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Nomad Zamani » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:59 pm

Joyofrlc Acker wrote:By the way, Nomad, the RezQ HUD (which is almost ready for beta test) has not involved much effort beyond my having to learn some new tricks (Google Apps for example) and as such Im not sure that really counts.

Ah - I wasn't aware (or had forgotten) that you're a coder. That changes what you're doing rather a lot.


My motivation is simply that we have an immediate problem, to which there is a fairly immediate solution; and that the more radical alternatives will almost certainly take a while to come to fruition (if they ever do).

One can but hope.


I would wager that wind setters will still be in use this time next year.

They very probably will be.


The other items in the upgrade proposal, some are very easy, some maybe not so much. (The tweak to race resume I had coded a while back in a test wind setter, for example). And I was requesting feedback on the various ideas for basically the same reason you cite --- but in the context of it being worth while to make some improvements now and that does not preclude pursuing other long-term radical new (or not so new!) approaches (I think iirc I mentioned the idea of server based currents reflecting local geography).

Aye, several of us have advocated such advancements for a long time.

Regarding feedback for upgrading the existing system, if you have good ideas and the means to make them happen, just do it.
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Joyofrlc Acker » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:18 pm

"Just do it" ... yes thats where Im leaning I think - your initial remarks about planning a Grand Design (Ok my words not yours LOL) are bang on - in theory however in the grubby world of practicalities I suspect that progress is an awkward mixture of planning interspersed with leaps of faith.

Also I guess its sometimes easier for people to say whats wrong with something that someone puts out there - than for people to rationally decide together ahead of time how it should work.

Its also interesting that for something as important as wind (currents, waves) there are so few comments here :)
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Cynthia Centaur » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:47 pm

Hello Joy,

Its also interesting that for something as important as wind (currents, waves) there are so few comments here


Looking at the history of wind setters and their current development as well as the same for start lines ... I for myself came to the conclusion that most people around here who are also capable of reasonable coding are in turn not capable of discussing over a longer period of time and finding a compromise that might fit as many people as possible.

All things that worked in the community have been driven AND decided either alone or by a VERY small group of people. All attempts for a community driven solution have failed.

I leave it up to others to analyze and comment on this fact but a fact it is.

Thus I am not surprised about the small number of comments.

Best regards
Cyn (who wonders whether a provocing statement like this will at least raise the usual noise :-) )
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Re: WWC Setter Upgrade Proposal

Postby Nomad Zamani » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:39 pm

Joyofrlc Acker wrote:"Just do it" ... yes thats where Im leaning I think - your initial remarks about planning a Grand Design (Ok my words not yours LOL) are bang on - in theory however in the grubby world of practicalities I suspect that progress is an awkward mixture of planning interspersed with leaps of faith.

I think it's more about inspiration and actually doing it.


Also I guess its sometimes easier for people to say whats wrong with something that someone puts out there - than for people to rationally decide together ahead of time how it should work.

Its also interesting that for something as important as wind (currents, waves) there are so few comments here :)

I suspect the majority aren't very interested, as long as the boats appear to do boat-like stuff. It has to be remembered that a lot of SL sailors have never been on a real boat, and I dare say a lot of those haven't really thought in depth about what it's like being on a real boat. Without a RL reference, or a decent understanding of a RL reference, they're left with the SL reference, which isn't a very good basis for critiquing the SL reference. There are others who do have a better understanding, of course, and some of them have the ability to define and build. There have been attempts in the past to build, or at least define, grand schemes, but they either fell apart due to personalities, or just ran out of steam. As Cynthia says, the stuff that actually sees the light of day is the result of solo efforts, or of tiny development groups (two or three people at most).
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